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How to Meditate: Meditation 101 for Beginners
10 Science-Backed Benefits of Meditation
What is Meditation?
How to Meditate: Meditation 101 for Beginners
10 Science-Backed Benefits of Meditation
What is Meditation?
Benefits of Mindfulness: Mindful Living Can Change Your Life
Mindfulness 101: A Beginner's Guide
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In this interview, Danny shares why stress kills creativity and what you can do to become more relaxed, open and creative.
I'm your host Melli O'Brien.
And I am here today with Dr.
Danny Penman, who is a qualified
meditation teacher, an award-winning
journalist and author, and
actually the author of two of my
favorite books on mindfulness.
And he's just put out a third one called
Mindfulness for Creativity, which is what
we're going to be talking about today.
So, Danny, thanks so much for
being here and sharing your time.
Oh, no, it's great to be here.
It's, I'm just so glad that, you
know, like you could squeeze me in.
And I also would like to take this
opportunity, Danny, just to, to really,
you know, give you a, a deep, deep bow for
being the very first person really who,
who really truly believed in this project
and started to really support and help us.
So thank you so much for making this,
helping make this summit happen.
No, it's brilliant.
I mean, it's, it's just such an
extraordinary range of people and, you
know, it's, it's just great that you
pulled everybody together and they're just
sharing their knowledge and their wisdom.
It's, it's brilliant.
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
And so I'm really excited about talking
about mindfulness for creativity, but I'd
love to know, first of all, what brought
you to mindfulness in the first place?
Well, it's quite a shocking story in a
way because I used to be a really keen
paraglider pilot, and, you know, it
was like the central feature of my life.
And one day I was paragliding over the
Cotswold Hills in Southern England.
And my, my canopy collapsed and it
literally just collapsed into nothing.
And I just plummeted towards the earth.
And I was about 80 feet up at the time,
and luckily I managed to reinflate it,
but it immediately collapsed again.
I fell about 30, 35 feet onto the
hillside below and it drove the
lower half of my right leg through
the knee and into the thigh.
It was a really, really horrible,
horrible thing to happen.
And you know, I, I, I was stunned
obviously for a few seconds and I kind
of came around and was, you know, hit by
the most unimaginable, unimaginable pain.
And, but I realized that, you
know, I had to stay fully conscious
because I had to call an ambulance.
And I also knew that if
I lost consciousness, I
might never wake up again.
And so suppose, you know, I was in this
quandry, I just wanted to basically just
drift off, but I knew I had to stay awake.
And the only way I knew of controlling
pain was a form of meditation I'd
learnt in, when I was about 16
or 17 in, in secondary school.
And it's a very, very simple meditation,
the simplest one of all, where you just,
you focus on the breath and you know, you
just keep on following it as, as, as the
air flows in and then the air flows out.
It's a very, very simple
breathing meditation.
And I'd heard that, you know, meditation
could be used for, for pain relief.
So I, you know, I, I did it
there and then, more in hope and
desperation than, you know, any
belief that it was going to work.
And much to my surprise, it did start
to work and, you know, gradually
the pain did begin to diminish.
And you know, it meant that I could kind
of maintain consciousness and just hang in
there until, until the ambulance arrived.
And it was, and well obviously
they took me to hospital.
I had a series of operations and
I spent about a month in hospital.
Wow.
This big steel frame strapped to my leg
and there was 16 bolts and wires going
in one side of the leg through a piece of
bone and out the other side of the leg.
And from time to time, they'd move
the, these bits of bone around the
sides to make sure they all kind of
stuck together in the right position.
So obviously I was highly stressed and
extremely unhappy and in an awful lot
of pain and they were giving me really
powerful painkillers, because obviously
that's the only thing available.
But I was, the trouble with painkillers is
they, they dull your awareness, you know.
You kind of live in this nether
world and it's, it's just
not a pleasant place to be.
But it's obviously better
then being in pain.
Anyway, I remembered the
meditation that I'd used.
And I just started to use it along
with a simple visualization meditation.
And kind of gradually, over the next
four and a half or five months, while
I had this frame on, you know, I, I, I
became quite addicted to this meditation,
really because it was the only way I
could get to sleep each night because
of the levels of pain I was under.
And it was the only thing keeping
me sane, to be honest, because, you
know, I was having a really intensive
physiotherapy, three hours a day minimum.
And yeah, it was a horrible time,
really, really horrible time.
I was highly stressed.
I wasn't depressed as such, but, you
know, I was pretty unhappy and the
only thing really that was driving me
forward was this determination to kind
of get better and be able to walk again,
because there was some doubt that I'd
ever be able to walk again properly.
And anyway, I actually
recovered in double quick time.
They said that I probably need this for
about 18 months, this frame on my leg.
And they removed after about four
and a half or five months because my
healing had accelerated so, so rapidly.
And, you know, I mean, this was largely
down to the fact that I was nowhere
near, as stressed as most people were.
You know, if you're highly
stressed, it retards healing.
If you relax, you know, and you are
just able to cope with life a bit
better, your healing accelerates.
And over, I suppose, over the
following year, I started to study
these meditations more and more.
And I came across the work of
Professor Mark Williams at Oxford
University in the UK, who I think
he was your first, your first guest.
Yes.
Yes, and so I came across Mark's work
and mindfulness based cognitive therapy.
And, you know, I just thought this is
one of the most amazing mental health
discoveries, that have ever been made.
You know, I mean, you look at the
evidence and it roughly halves the relapse
rate for serious mental complaints,
like, obviously clinical depression.
It's great for anxiety and stress as
well, but it's also good for a whole
range of other physical conditions.
So I came across this work and I
was determined to get this in print.
You know, I'm a journalist and I just
couldn't get any interest at all.
It was driving me mad because
here's this technique that had
helped me enormously and, you know,
the evidence base was phenomenal.
It had just started to be used in
our national health service and
still no newspaper was interested.
I found this completely crazy.
Eventually I actually came across the
work of, uh, luckily, there was a, a news
peg I came across, that's what it was.
William Kiken, who was then at Exeter
University, had done some more work
on this area showing that it was a
least as good as antidepressants.
And so this was the news peg
to get it in a newspaper.
And really then I made about 500 words.
And again, it was really frustrating.
So I eventually persuaded Mark
that, you know, we might as well
put this into a book together.
You know, we take everything, we'd
slim it down as far as possible
while still being effective.
And it'd be a nice structured
eight week program.
But didn't really have much hope
that it was going to be a best
seller or anything like that.
But I thought, well, at least
the information is out there.
It's going to benefit a few
hundred or a few thousand people.
And, you know, it was just
worth doing in its own right.
And anyway, the rest is history, you know.
It's, it's, it's become
a worldwide bestseller.
It's been in the UK Top 10 paperback
chart for three and a half years now.
And it's doing really well in America,
in Australia, all around the world.
It's been translated into
25 languages, I think now.
So it's exceeded our
wildest expectations really.
And I then teamed up with
Vidyamala Burch of Breathworks.
And this, this is a wonderful
organization based in Manchester,
in the North of England that uses
mindfulness, teaches mindfulness for,
to help people with, with chronic pain.
You know, with the worst kinds of pain
imaginable, absolutely unremitting.
And, you know, mindfulness has been
proven to, again, roughly half the,
the, the intensity of chronic pain.
And in experienced meditators, you know,
some evidence shows it can reduce it by up
to 90%, which is an astonishing figure..
Yeah.
That's absolutely incredible.
And what I love about Vidyamala's
work as well, is that the, the first
thing that often goes when you have
an injury, right, is your income?
And she has these wonderful scholarships
to make sure that all of those
people have some accessibility there.
So you wrote those two books, both
of which I've read and both of which
are my favorite, some of my favorite
books on mindfulness of all time.
And so what made you now want to write
about mindfulness for creativity?
What was your inspiration for that?
Well, it became obvious to me that
you know, mindfulness has been
used to kind of help, people with
kind of mental, physical, mental,
and physical pain and suffering.
You know, it was brilliant
for alleviating problems.
And it just suddenly struck me that it
was going to be really good for helping
people kind of optimize their approach
to life and intellect and creativity.
A
nd I started looking at the evidence
and about, I suppose about three
or four years ago, people had
started looking into this area.
I found that it was, it was brilliant
for, for boosting creativity and
decision-making, and cause it enhanced
this kind of rational thoughts as well.
And the more I started looking into
this, the more convinced I became the
actually, you know, this could be a
great way of, well, improving society.
You know, if people started making
sensible, rational decisions,
then that's got to be good.
And not only that, you know, if you
enhance creativity, you know, it's
good all around because it means
you'll come up with better solutions
to problems, better art, maybe.
Just everything is going to be better
if you have creative solutions to
any kind of difficulty or situation,
or, you know, it's obviously great
for writers and all the rest of it.
Yeah.
I was thinking that the perks for you,
you know, studying that when you're
such a creative person, it must've
been such a journey for you as well.
Yeah.
Well, I found that it
does, it does improve.
Just a few minutes, preferably more,
but even just a few minutes of just open
awareness, as it's called, you know,
where you just focus on the whole field
of awareness, sounds and thoughts, for
example, I just I find it settles my
mind and it just, if the mind stops
chattering, then ideas just start
bubbling up from, from your subconscious.
And it just makes it
a lot easier to write.
That's what I found.
Yeah.
So there's two, there's two sort of
things that you point out in your book.
You point out some of the things
that kill creativity or dampen it,
and then you talk about some of the
ways that mindfulness can really help
cultivate certain, certain skills.
Yeah.
So could you talk about a little bit,
first of all, what, why is stress
such a big killer of creativity?
What, what's going on there?
Well, if you're on the back
foot, that you're frightened or
stressed, what happens is your
mind essentially closes down.
It's called the avoidance
system because it focuses on
the immediate needs of survival.
And in the past, when we lived,
say on the African savannah and
there was lions and tigers and
God knows what about to eat, you.
That's brilliant because it fires
you up and, you know, you, you, you
pick the best way out of a situation.
You just basically run away and all of
your energy is diverted to escaping.
That's great, does, does the job
perfectly if you're in that environment.
But of course, if you're in, say in
an office environment or in a factory,
and you're under stress, the last
thing you need is for your mind to
close down, because you're not going
to come up with, you're not creative.
You won't be able to think clearly.
And, you know, it's
also, you can't escape.
If you are in the modern world, you
cannot escape from these nebulous threats.
So the stress just builds up and
builds up and builds up and your
whole life begins to narrow.
And that obviously leads to
chronic stress and depression.
But it means you, you know, any kind of
rational thought and creative solutions,
they just, well, you're just not going
to notice them because you're so focused
on the immediate needs of survival
And, yeah.
Go ahead.
It's, and so what you need to do is you
need to, what mindfulness is brilliant
at is obviously reducing stress,
but in some ways that's not enough.
You need to enhance your ability
to, kind of assimilate new ideas
and information, you know, so that
you're open to new concepts and
you're open to noticing new ideas.
And so that's what mindfulness
gives you, but it, it gives
you something more as well.
It gives you this kind of mental
resilience to pursue an idea.
So you don't only do you notice these
new ideas that are bubbling up in your
mind, you actually have the kind of
drive and the resilience to just put
them into action and basically ignore
all the naysayers, you know, just you,
you know, resilience is so, so important.
Strength of character is so important
to achieving anything in life.
And that's what mindfulness does.
Yeah.
And I love that you draw that the, you
know, you, you bring into awareness,
the difference between somebody,
somebody who might be imaginative
and somebody who's actually creative.
And, you know, the difference is that
the creative person actually does.
You know, and that does
require a lot of resilience.
It's it's, you know, it's an increase.
It's a, and the naysayers
often are in here too.
It's not just naysayers out there.
It's mostly in here, the ones that
you have to discern, you know, that's
just a voice in my head and I can
do it anyway, because I believe in
this or because I love this and.
Yeah.
We're all our own worst enemies.
You know, we, we, we criticize ourselves
far more than anybody else ever.
It's just a, it's just, I think
it's a major problem with, with
the modern world, you know, just
the brutal way we treat ourselves.
Yeah.
Which is why I think one of the
themes in this summit that's just
been coming out more and more
and more is, self-compassion.
So, but it's like that self
compassion and resilience together.
Yeah.
So a, and there are specific skills
that you talk about in the book that the
practice of mindfulness really cultivates.
Resilience is one of them and
there's other skills that mindfulness
helps us to cultivate as well.
Could you speak about those as well?
Yeah, it's a full week program
and it's four weeks for a very
good reason in that it builds, uh,
three skills, three core skills.
And then in the fourth week, you
kind of bind them all together.
On the first week is really is
learning how to focus again.
And the great thing about learning
how to focus is that it helps you to
kind of just assimilate information.
And that's that's the first stage of
creativity is, is simulating ideas.
Was it Picasso who said,
steal like an artist?
Well, you know, the first thing you
have to do is assimilate those ideas.
And that's what the first week is, it's
a very, very simple breathing meditation.
I'm sure anybody who's, who's done
any mindfulness practice will know
this, but it's still very important
to do that for the first week.
And then in the second week, you
learn a skill called open monitoring.
And a good example is the
sounds and thoughts meditation
or an insight meditation.
And that what that does is
it broadens your awareness.
So again, you notice new
ideas, but crucially, you
start to notice your own ideas.
So that once your mind calms down,
you can actually begin to notice
and pay attention to your own ideas,
because we're constantly having
ideas, it's just we don't notice them.
They're just drowned out by this kind
of incessant chatter in our minds.
And so that's the second week.
On the third week is to build a
mental fortitude and resilience.
And we do that with a what's called
a Metta meditation, or some people
call it a loving kindness meditation.
And that teaches you or inculcates
the idea of just being a little
more gentle with yourself, because
if you're a little more gentle with
yourself, you've got just, you have
the resilience to take the brickbats
from everybody else because people are
always going to try and knock you down.
And if you actually, you know, have got
a great idea, you have to believe in
it and you have to put it into action.
And other people are inevitably
going to try to undermine you.
That's just the way the world works.
So you need to be able to cope
with that and the best way
is using a metta meditation.
And the fourth week.
Teaches you, it's an insight meditation.
And, again, it just broadens
awareness so that you can kind
of gather more information.
You can see the ideas bubbling
up, and also builds resilience.
So it's kind of a way of
putting it all together.
You know, so it's a, it's
a step-by-step process.
And you know, that's what, yeah, that's
the, these are the core techniques
you need to succeed in any field.
And the, so in, in this book and your
recommendation is to do some, it,
my question is actually, what is,
is the mindfulness practices in this
book for creativity, for cultivating
creativity, are they any different to,
are they specifically for creativity
or is it just that mindfulness itself,
as you go through this process,
mindfulness itself just allows those
skills to emerge more and more?
Yes and no.
There's quite a lot of evidence
over the past few years that open
monitoring meditations, they're the
ones that really enhance creativity.
But you need both.
You need to be able to focus
because we all have very
scattered minds at the moment.
So you need to spend a little
time learning how to just
notice the world around you.
And the simplest way is
the breathing meditation.
Now that's a focused awareness meditation.
But you need the open monitoring to
really optimize your own creativity.
And know it can have a
really dramatic effect.
I mean, some of the evidence says that
it's at least a 30% improvement in your
standardized creativity test results.
Oh.
wow!
So it's a big, it is a big, big
increase, and in some aspects of
creativity, it's actually a four-fold
increase, which is an astonishing figure.
And...
What time period was that of practice?
Well, the interesting thing is it
happens very, very quickly because
most, most forms of meditation,
like focused awareness ones are,
it actually builds up over time.
So the brain begins to rewire itself.
Yeah.
But the odd thing about open monitoring
is it seems to be almost instantaneous
and that's yeah, because of what
you're doing here is you're, instead
of having a point- like focus in
the meditation, you're opening up.
And obviously when you stop meditating,
your field of awareness begins to narrow
and you, your mind starts to hop around
like a, like a crazy frog or something.
And that's, that's inevitable.
It, it just that's what life does to you.
And but I would imagine the
evidence isn't there yet.
But I'm sure it's true that the
more you do these opened monitoring
meditations, they will actually begin
to rewire your brain in the way that
other meditations have been shown to do.
But the evidence is only there for an
immediate left, which is great, of course.
Nobody's going to complain about that.
And so besides the formal practice
of mindfulness, are there, are there
informal ways that you're recommending
for people to integrate into their
creative lives or just into their lives?
Yeah.
I mean theres', in common with the
previous books, there's lots of, we call
them habit releases, which is essentially
a kind of formal way of breaking habits.
And it's really, really important
to do those kinds of things because
we're all creatures of habit and
you actually have to consciously
set out to break your habits.
Otherwise you just end up
going around in circles.
And so, I mean, my favorite
one is we call a creative date.
Whereas as you set time aside
each week, just a couple of
hours to do whatever you fancy.
And that sounds easy to do, but actually
to create an hour or two of time each
week, for many people, is very, very
difficult and they'll never actually
do it unless somebody tells them to.
So that's
So that's why you make it a date.
Yeah I'm telling them you have to do this.
And it's stuff like, I
mean, it could be anything.
You know, it could be going
to an art gallery to watch a
film, go and watch a sunset.
Anything that kind of fills your heart
with joy and sparks your interest, just
go and do it and set aside that time.
So that's my favorite one.
I do that all the time.
Probably more than once a week.
Yeah.
When I read that in the book, I think
you also mentioned that if you sort
of can't think of something to try
and think of something that you did
half your lifespan ago, was that it?
Yes.
Yeah.
And well, the thing that I used to do a
lot that I realized I still do sometimes,
but not as much is just keep a diary.
I used to doodle and,
you know, keep a diary.
And so I had a creative date
and my partner did as well.
He had a creative date and, and
we both had so much fun doing it.
And it was that feeling of just a
free flow of creativity and idea.
So I really enjoyed that.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, they're, they're
always good fun to do.
And you know, it's, it's just a
great way of sparking new ideas.
And what would you do these days, after
all of this research and everything that
you've learned, what would you do in
a moment of writer's block, if you had
a moment of writer's block right now?
Wander around the park.
I live near a nice park and
it's just great, you know.
Just walk around, get some fresh air and
it just sets you off on a different track.
It just opens the mind, broadens the mind.
And that's kindof my favorite practice.
I mean, I'm a real avid walker.
And you know, you look at anybody who's
involved in the creative field at all.
You know, they always do things like that.
It's just a way of jumping the tracks
into some, to a different direction.
As opposed to, I would say, and
I've experienced this myself, I'm
sure most of our viewers have as
well, that moment where you just
try and force yourself through it.
You know, you, you are trying to
do something, you're trying to
write something or do something
creative and you just try to push.
You mentally try to like grit
your teeth and think your way
through it, or, you know, it's,
and it's a, it's a horrible moment.
You berate yourself and why can't I do it?
And...
Yeah.
I mean, actually, I mean the real way
of, if you're a writer, this is what I
found is you do need those breaks, but
you also need to, I mean, I just set aside
90 minutes every morning to, to write.
And sometimes I'll just start
with almost random words.
You know, and it's, I'll just start
and it's terrible, you know, I read it
and it it's, it just doesn't make much
sense at all or it's really clunky,
it's ugly, but it doesn't matter.
It kind of gets, gets you moving
and it's, it's the momentum.
Yeah.
I think creativity is about momentum.
It's just, it's turning up.
It's turning up and just doing your best.
Danny, would you care to guide us
through, maybe a short, a short
practice, maybe five, 10 minutes?
Yeah.
My favorite one.
You shouldn't have favorites when
it comes to mindfulness, but I do.
A
secret favorite.
Exactly, exactly.
This is the one I do most days really.
It's, when I do it
myself, it's 20 minutes.
It's the sound of the thoughts meditation.
And for me, I, I go to my local park and
there's a, I have a favorite bench and
it overlooks the city where I live and
I just sit there and I close my eyes and
I just focus on the sounds around me.
And the idea behind the sounds of thoughts
meditation is to see the similarity
between the way sound behaves and
the way your thoughts behave, because
both just arrive as if from nowhere.
You've got no control over them arriving
at all, and the same often really
powerful message that force you to
react and then they just disappear,
just disappear of their own accord.
You've got no control over it at all.
And so it's a, if you really notice that,
it's quite a profound realization when you
realize that you are not your thoughts.
I mean, it's, it's become almost
a cliche, but it is so, so true.
And if there's one message that
rings true from mindfulness
is you are not your thoughts.
And so that's why I love this meditation.
And just to see how your mind just
constantly throws these thoughts
and ideas up and they're very
sticky, you know, you want to react.
And it's extremely difficult not to react.
And in fact, the only way you can not
react is, is really to watch them.
And this, so this is what I
do most mornings, rain, hail
or shine, in my local park.
Really, hail?
Well, maybe not.
So if you could sit upright.
I think you've got the same
chair as me so we'll both make
lots of funny fidgeting sounds.
Oh, we've got matching chairs.
They're all around.
Yeah.
So gently loosen up, loosen your
shoulders and begin to, begin to relax.
And sit upright as much as you can.
So you've got this like very
calm and dignified posture.
And then when you feel ready,
gently, close your eyes.
Begin to pay attention
to the world around you.
What thoughts are here>
And when you feel ready, begin to
move your awareness down to your feet,
where they make contact with the floor.
Just soak up the sensations.
And move your awareness through your
ankles, lower legs, knees, thighs,
hips and then onto your hands and arms.
And feel the breath as
it flows into your body.
And your stomach.
And lower back.
Feel the rise and fall of your shoulders.
When you feel ready, begin to pay
attention to the world, to the sounds.
What sounds are here?
You may hear cars, buses,
aircraft in the distance.
Or the sound of wildlife.
Birds, scampering animals or
sound of the wind in the trees.
Whatever is here, just
just pay attention to it.
Notice how the sounds just arrive.
You have no control over them.
They arrive, linger for a
while, and then just disappear.
They may arrive from the front or the
back, above or below, and left or right.
Try not to become too engaged
with any specific sound.
Just listen to the whole soundscape,
the whole panorama of sound.
After a while, when you feel
already, move your awareness to the
thoughts flowing across your mind.
Notice how they behave like sounds,
Notice how they arrive, linger
for awhile, and then dissipate.
Have no control over your thoughts.
They arise and trigger other
thoughts and then dissipate.
When you become lost in your thoughts,
as you will from time to time,
gently shepherd your awareness back
to the breath for a few moments
and take a mental step back.
Watch your thoughts once again.
When your mind wanders once again,
try not to criticize yourself.
Minds think.
It's what they do.
So gently shepherd your awareness
back to the breath and then pay
attention to your thoughts once again.
If any thoughts are particularly
strong or compelling, gently say to
yourself, remind yourself, thinking,
thinking, worrying, worrying, or
whatever feels the most appropriate.
And then briefly focus on the breath and
begin to watch your thoughts once again.
When you feel ready, begin to
bring this meditation to a close.
Begin to notice the sounds around you.
Gently begin to move and
reconnect with the outside world.
Stretching is always a good one.
Thank you so much for that practice.
Something occurred to me actually,
while we were practicing is that I, I
kind of felt there was even a kind of
resilience that was happening even in
that moment when you, you know, it just
happens moment to moment in meditation,
you, you find yourself lost and then
you come back with some gentleness and
some friendliness, and that feels like
right there is just like doing the rep of
resilience and right there in that moment.
So, and it's a kind of
liberation, I guess.
It's a liberation from the tyranny
of that, that internal voice.
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Just being quiet for a while,
it's just, I don't know.
It's all you need sometimes, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Is there anything else that you'd like
to share before we close this session?
Yeah.
I mean, everybody understandably
focuses on formal mindfulness practices,
but actually one the most important
things you can do is just be aware
as you go through your day, you know.
Just eating more mindfully, drinking
more mindfully, you know, talking
and listening more mindfully, just
walking down the street, being
aware of what's going on around you.
I mean, that to me is it's
the essence of mindfulness.
The practices themselves are just
there to reinforce that awareness.
And I think that's something that most
people, including me, quite often forget.
Y
Yeah.
You don't want to sort of, I guess
it can be a bit of a, a, o, I don't
want to say the word trap, but it can
be a bit of a tricky thing when you
have the idea that you do meditation
for, you know, 15 minutes a day and
then, and then that's over and then
you just go back to daily life.
But daily life is where it's the most...
This is, this is our lives,
we want to be awake for it.
This is it.
But this is where we
spend most of our time.
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
So it's been said that mindfulness has
the capacity to change the world from
the inside out one person at a time.
And so I'm wondering if mindfulness
would to hit critical mass, in your
view, what do you think that would
look like on a, on a world stage?
What kind of changes?
Yeah, I don't think we'd notice.
I think it would just become so normal,
such a part of the paint work that
we'd regard it as entirely normal.
And it would of course
be a far better world.
But maybe we just notice the people
who were unmindful, you know.
We'd, we'd almost need to usher
them off to hospital for a
bit of rest and recuperation.
It would just be a far
better world, you know?
It's not going to happen in the next
few decades, but maybe in 500 years
I think all of these projects have
to be seen as 500 year projects.
Oh, Danny, thank you
so much for your time.
And I definitely highly,
highly recommend your new book.
They're always wonderful, but Matty and
I are both creative people, so we're
already taking ourselves on creative dates
and loving some of the tips in there.
So thank you so much again for believing
in this project and for your time.
And I wish you all the best.
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