I'm your host Melli O'Brien.

And I am here today with Dr.

Danny Penman, who is a qualified

meditation teacher, an award-winning

journalist and author, and

actually the author of two of my

favorite books on mindfulness.

And he's just put out a third one called

Mindfulness for Creativity, which is what

we're going to be talking about today.

So, Danny, thanks so much for

being here and sharing your time.

Oh, no, it's great to be here.

It's, I'm just so glad that, you

know, like you could squeeze me in.

And I also would like to take this

opportunity, Danny, just to, to really,

you know, give you a, a deep, deep bow for

being the very first person really who,

who really truly believed in this project

and started to really support and help us.

So thank you so much for making this,

helping make this summit happen.

No, it's brilliant.

I mean, it's, it's just such an

extraordinary range of people and, you

know, it's, it's just great that you

pulled everybody together and they're just

sharing their knowledge and their wisdom.

It's, it's brilliant.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

And so I'm really excited about talking

about mindfulness for creativity, but I'd

love to know, first of all, what brought

you to mindfulness in the first place?

Well, it's quite a shocking story in a

way because I used to be a really keen

paraglider pilot, and, you know, it

was like the central feature of my life.

And one day I was paragliding over the

Cotswold Hills in Southern England.

And my, my canopy collapsed and it

literally just collapsed into nothing.

And I just plummeted towards the earth.

And I was about 80 feet up at the time,

and luckily I managed to reinflate it,

but it immediately collapsed again.

I fell about 30, 35 feet onto the

hillside below and it drove the

lower half of my right leg through

the knee and into the thigh.

It was a really, really horrible,

horrible thing to happen.

And you know, I, I, I was stunned

obviously for a few seconds and I kind

of came around and was, you know, hit by

the most unimaginable, unimaginable pain.

And, but I realized that, you

know, I had to stay fully conscious

because I had to call an ambulance.

And I also knew that if

I lost consciousness, I

might never wake up again.

And so suppose, you know, I was in this

quandry, I just wanted to basically just

drift off, but I knew I had to stay awake.

And the only way I knew of controlling

pain was a form of meditation I'd

learnt in, when I was about 16

or 17 in, in secondary school.

And it's a very, very simple meditation,

the simplest one of all, where you just,

you focus on the breath and you know, you

just keep on following it as, as, as the

air flows in and then the air flows out.

It's a very, very simple

breathing meditation.

And I'd heard that, you know, meditation

could be used for, for pain relief.

So I, you know, I, I did it

there and then, more in hope and

desperation than, you know, any

belief that it was going to work.

And much to my surprise, it did start

to work and, you know, gradually

the pain did begin to diminish.

And you know, it meant that I could kind

of maintain consciousness and just hang in

there until, until the ambulance arrived.

And it was, and well obviously

they took me to hospital.

I had a series of operations and

I spent about a month in hospital.

Wow.

This big steel frame strapped to my leg

and there was 16 bolts and wires going

in one side of the leg through a piece of

bone and out the other side of the leg.

And from time to time, they'd move

the, these bits of bone around the

sides to make sure they all kind of

stuck together in the right position.

So obviously I was highly stressed and

extremely unhappy and in an awful lot

of pain and they were giving me really

powerful painkillers, because obviously

that's the only thing available.

But I was, the trouble with painkillers is

they, they dull your awareness, you know.

You kind of live in this nether

world and it's, it's just

not a pleasant place to be.

But it's obviously better

then being in pain.

Anyway, I remembered the

meditation that I'd used.

And I just started to use it along

with a simple visualization meditation.

And kind of gradually, over the next

four and a half or five months, while

I had this frame on, you know, I, I, I

became quite addicted to this meditation,

really because it was the only way I

could get to sleep each night because

of the levels of pain I was under.

And it was the only thing keeping

me sane, to be honest, because, you

know, I was having a really intensive

physiotherapy, three hours a day minimum.

And yeah, it was a horrible time,

really, really horrible time.

I was highly stressed.

I wasn't depressed as such, but, you

know, I was pretty unhappy and the

only thing really that was driving me

forward was this determination to kind

of get better and be able to walk again,

because there was some doubt that I'd

ever be able to walk again properly.

And anyway, I actually

recovered in double quick time.

They said that I probably need this for

about 18 months, this frame on my leg.

And they removed after about four

and a half or five months because my

healing had accelerated so, so rapidly.

And, you know, I mean, this was largely

down to the fact that I was nowhere

near, as stressed as most people were.

You know, if you're highly

stressed, it retards healing.

If you relax, you know, and you are

just able to cope with life a bit

better, your healing accelerates.

And over, I suppose, over the

following year, I started to study

these meditations more and more.

And I came across the work of

Professor Mark Williams at Oxford

University in the UK, who I think

he was your first, your first guest.

Yes.

Yes, and so I came across Mark's work

and mindfulness based cognitive therapy.

And, you know, I just thought this is

one of the most amazing mental health

discoveries, that have ever been made.

You know, I mean, you look at the

evidence and it roughly halves the relapse

rate for serious mental complaints,

like, obviously clinical depression.

It's great for anxiety and stress as

well, but it's also good for a whole

range of other physical conditions.

So I came across this work and I

was determined to get this in print.

You know, I'm a journalist and I just

couldn't get any interest at all.

It was driving me mad because

here's this technique that had

helped me enormously and, you know,

the evidence base was phenomenal.

It had just started to be used in

our national health service and

still no newspaper was interested.

I found this completely crazy.

Eventually I actually came across the

work of, uh, luckily, there was a, a news

peg I came across, that's what it was.

William Kiken, who was then at Exeter

University, had done some more work

on this area showing that it was a

least as good as antidepressants.

And so this was the news peg

to get it in a newspaper.

And really then I made about 500 words.

And again, it was really frustrating.

So I eventually persuaded Mark

that, you know, we might as well

put this into a book together.

You know, we take everything, we'd

slim it down as far as possible

while still being effective.

And it'd be a nice structured

eight week program.

But didn't really have much hope

that it was going to be a best

seller or anything like that.

But I thought, well, at least

the information is out there.

It's going to benefit a few

hundred or a few thousand people.

And, you know, it was just

worth doing in its own right.

And anyway, the rest is history, you know.

It's, it's, it's become

a worldwide bestseller.

It's been in the UK Top 10 paperback

chart for three and a half years now.

And it's doing really well in America,

in Australia, all around the world.

It's been translated into

25 languages, I think now.

So it's exceeded our

wildest expectations really.

And I then teamed up with

Vidyamala Burch of Breathworks.

And this, this is a wonderful

organization based in Manchester,

in the North of England that uses

mindfulness, teaches mindfulness for,

to help people with, with chronic pain.

You know, with the worst kinds of pain

imaginable, absolutely unremitting.

And, you know, mindfulness has been

proven to, again, roughly half the,

the, the intensity of chronic pain.

And in experienced meditators, you know,

some evidence shows it can reduce it by up

to 90%, which is an astonishing figure..

Yeah.

That's absolutely incredible.

And what I love about Vidyamala's

work as well, is that the, the first

thing that often goes when you have

an injury, right, is your income?

And she has these wonderful scholarships

to make sure that all of those

people have some accessibility there.

So you wrote those two books, both

of which I've read and both of which

are my favorite, some of my favorite

books on mindfulness of all time.

And so what made you now want to write

about mindfulness for creativity?

What was your inspiration for that?

Well, it became obvious to me that

you know, mindfulness has been

used to kind of help, people with

kind of mental, physical, mental,

and physical pain and suffering.

You know, it was brilliant

for alleviating problems.

And it just suddenly struck me that it

was going to be really good for helping

people kind of optimize their approach

to life and intellect and creativity.

A

nd I started looking at the evidence

and about, I suppose about three

or four years ago, people had

started looking into this area.

I found that it was, it was brilliant

for, for boosting creativity and

decision-making, and cause it enhanced

this kind of rational thoughts as well.

And the more I started looking into

this, the more convinced I became the

actually, you know, this could be a

great way of, well, improving society.

You know, if people started making

sensible, rational decisions,

then that's got to be good.

And not only that, you know, if you

enhance creativity, you know, it's

good all around because it means

you'll come up with better solutions

to problems, better art, maybe.

Just everything is going to be better

if you have creative solutions to

any kind of difficulty or situation,

or, you know, it's obviously great

for writers and all the rest of it.

Yeah.

I was thinking that the perks for you,

you know, studying that when you're

such a creative person, it must've

been such a journey for you as well.

Yeah.

Well, I found that it

does, it does improve.

Just a few minutes, preferably more,

but even just a few minutes of just open

awareness, as it's called, you know,

where you just focus on the whole field

of awareness, sounds and thoughts, for

example, I just I find it settles my

mind and it just, if the mind stops

chattering, then ideas just start

bubbling up from, from your subconscious.

And it just makes it

a lot easier to write.

That's what I found.

Yeah.

So there's two, there's two sort of

things that you point out in your book.

You point out some of the things

that kill creativity or dampen it,

and then you talk about some of the

ways that mindfulness can really help

cultivate certain, certain skills.

Yeah.

So could you talk about a little bit,

first of all, what, why is stress

such a big killer of creativity?

What, what's going on there?

Well, if you're on the back

foot, that you're frightened or

stressed, what happens is your

mind essentially closes down.

It's called the avoidance

system because it focuses on

the immediate needs of survival.

And in the past, when we lived,

say on the African savannah and

there was lions and tigers and

God knows what about to eat, you.

That's brilliant because it fires

you up and, you know, you, you, you

pick the best way out of a situation.

You just basically run away and all of

your energy is diverted to escaping.

That's great, does, does the job

perfectly if you're in that environment.

But of course, if you're in, say in

an office environment or in a factory,

and you're under stress, the last

thing you need is for your mind to

close down, because you're not going

to come up with, you're not creative.

You won't be able to think clearly.

And, you know, it's

also, you can't escape.

If you are in the modern world, you

cannot escape from these nebulous threats.

So the stress just builds up and

builds up and builds up and your

whole life begins to narrow.

And that obviously leads to

chronic stress and depression.

But it means you, you know, any kind of

rational thought and creative solutions,

they just, well, you're just not going

to notice them because you're so focused

on the immediate needs of survival

And, yeah.

Go ahead.

It's, and so what you need to do is you

need to, what mindfulness is brilliant

at is obviously reducing stress,

but in some ways that's not enough.

You need to enhance your ability

to, kind of assimilate new ideas

and information, you know, so that

you're open to new concepts and

you're open to noticing new ideas.

And so that's what mindfulness

gives you, but it, it gives

you something more as well.

It gives you this kind of mental

resilience to pursue an idea.

So you don't only do you notice these

new ideas that are bubbling up in your

mind, you actually have the kind of

drive and the resilience to just put

them into action and basically ignore

all the naysayers, you know, just you,

you know, resilience is so, so important.

Strength of character is so important

to achieving anything in life.

And that's what mindfulness does.

Yeah.

And I love that you draw that the, you

know, you, you bring into awareness,

the difference between somebody,

somebody who might be imaginative

and somebody who's actually creative.

And, you know, the difference is that

the creative person actually does.

You know, and that does

require a lot of resilience.

It's it's, you know, it's an increase.

It's a, and the naysayers

often are in here too.

It's not just naysayers out there.

It's mostly in here, the ones that

you have to discern, you know, that's

just a voice in my head and I can

do it anyway, because I believe in

this or because I love this and.

Yeah.

We're all our own worst enemies.

You know, we, we, we criticize ourselves

far more than anybody else ever.

It's just a, it's just, I think

it's a major problem with, with

the modern world, you know, just

the brutal way we treat ourselves.

Yeah.

Which is why I think one of the

themes in this summit that's just

been coming out more and more

and more is, self-compassion.

So, but it's like that self

compassion and resilience together.

Yeah.

So a, and there are specific skills

that you talk about in the book that the

practice of mindfulness really cultivates.

Resilience is one of them and

there's other skills that mindfulness

helps us to cultivate as well.

Could you speak about those as well?

Yeah, it's a full week program

and it's four weeks for a very

good reason in that it builds, uh,

three skills, three core skills.

And then in the fourth week, you

kind of bind them all together.

On the first week is really is

learning how to focus again.

And the great thing about learning

how to focus is that it helps you to

kind of just assimilate information.

And that's that's the first stage of

creativity is, is simulating ideas.

Was it Picasso who said,

steal like an artist?

Well, you know, the first thing you

have to do is assimilate those ideas.

And that's what the first week is, it's

a very, very simple breathing meditation.

I'm sure anybody who's, who's done

any mindfulness practice will know

this, but it's still very important

to do that for the first week.

And then in the second week, you

learn a skill called open monitoring.

And a good example is the

sounds and thoughts meditation

or an insight meditation.

And that what that does is

it broadens your awareness.

So again, you notice new

ideas, but crucially, you

start to notice your own ideas.

So that once your mind calms down,

you can actually begin to notice

and pay attention to your own ideas,

because we're constantly having

ideas, it's just we don't notice them.

They're just drowned out by this kind

of incessant chatter in our minds.

And so that's the second week.

On the third week is to build a

mental fortitude and resilience.

And we do that with a what's called

a Metta meditation, or some people

call it a loving kindness meditation.

And that teaches you or inculcates

the idea of just being a little

more gentle with yourself, because

if you're a little more gentle with

yourself, you've got just, you have

the resilience to take the brickbats

from everybody else because people are

always going to try and knock you down.

And if you actually, you know, have got

a great idea, you have to believe in

it and you have to put it into action.

And other people are inevitably

going to try to undermine you.

That's just the way the world works.

So you need to be able to cope

with that and the best way

is using a metta meditation.

And the fourth week.

Teaches you, it's an insight meditation.

And, again, it just broadens

awareness so that you can kind

of gather more information.

You can see the ideas bubbling

up, and also builds resilience.

So it's kind of a way of

putting it all together.

You know, so it's a, it's

a step-by-step process.

And you know, that's what, yeah, that's

the, these are the core techniques

you need to succeed in any field.

And the, so in, in this book and your

recommendation is to do some, it,

my question is actually, what is,

is the mindfulness practices in this

book for creativity, for cultivating

creativity, are they any different to,

are they specifically for creativity

or is it just that mindfulness itself,

as you go through this process,

mindfulness itself just allows those

skills to emerge more and more?

Yes and no.

There's quite a lot of evidence

over the past few years that open

monitoring meditations, they're the

ones that really enhance creativity.

But you need both.

You need to be able to focus

because we all have very

scattered minds at the moment.

So you need to spend a little

time learning how to just

notice the world around you.

And the simplest way is

the breathing meditation.

Now that's a focused awareness meditation.

But you need the open monitoring to

really optimize your own creativity.

And know it can have a

really dramatic effect.

I mean, some of the evidence says that

it's at least a 30% improvement in your

standardized creativity test results.

Oh.

wow!

So it's a big, it is a big, big

increase, and in some aspects of

creativity, it's actually a four-fold

increase, which is an astonishing figure.

And...

What time period was that of practice?

Well, the interesting thing is it

happens very, very quickly because

most, most forms of meditation,

like focused awareness ones are,

it actually builds up over time.

So the brain begins to rewire itself.

Yeah.

But the odd thing about open monitoring

is it seems to be almost instantaneous

and that's yeah, because of what

you're doing here is you're, instead

of having a point- like focus in

the meditation, you're opening up.

And obviously when you stop meditating,

your field of awareness begins to narrow

and you, your mind starts to hop around

like a, like a crazy frog or something.

And that's, that's inevitable.

It, it just that's what life does to you.

And but I would imagine the

evidence isn't there yet.

But I'm sure it's true that the

more you do these opened monitoring

meditations, they will actually begin

to rewire your brain in the way that

other meditations have been shown to do.

But the evidence is only there for an

immediate left, which is great, of course.

Nobody's going to complain about that.

And so besides the formal practice

of mindfulness, are there, are there

informal ways that you're recommending

for people to integrate into their

creative lives or just into their lives?

Yeah.

I mean theres', in common with the

previous books, there's lots of, we call

them habit releases, which is essentially

a kind of formal way of breaking habits.

And it's really, really important

to do those kinds of things because

we're all creatures of habit and

you actually have to consciously

set out to break your habits.

Otherwise you just end up

going around in circles.

And so, I mean, my favorite

one is we call a creative date.

Whereas as you set time aside

each week, just a couple of

hours to do whatever you fancy.

And that sounds easy to do, but actually

to create an hour or two of time each

week, for many people, is very, very

difficult and they'll never actually

do it unless somebody tells them to.

So that's

So that's why you make it a date.

Yeah I'm telling them you have to do this.

And it's stuff like, I

mean, it could be anything.

You know, it could be going

to an art gallery to watch a

film, go and watch a sunset.

Anything that kind of fills your heart

with joy and sparks your interest, just

go and do it and set aside that time.

So that's my favorite one.

I do that all the time.

Probably more than once a week.

Yeah.

When I read that in the book, I think

you also mentioned that if you sort

of can't think of something to try

and think of something that you did

half your lifespan ago, was that it?

Yes.

Yeah.

And well, the thing that I used to do a

lot that I realized I still do sometimes,

but not as much is just keep a diary.

I used to doodle and,

you know, keep a diary.

And so I had a creative date

and my partner did as well.

He had a creative date and, and

we both had so much fun doing it.

And it was that feeling of just a

free flow of creativity and idea.

So I really enjoyed that.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, they're, they're

always good fun to do.

And you know, it's, it's just a

great way of sparking new ideas.

And what would you do these days, after

all of this research and everything that

you've learned, what would you do in

a moment of writer's block, if you had

a moment of writer's block right now?

Wander around the park.

I live near a nice park and

it's just great, you know.

Just walk around, get some fresh air and

it just sets you off on a different track.

It just opens the mind, broadens the mind.

And that's kindof my favorite practice.

I mean, I'm a real avid walker.

And you know, you look at anybody who's

involved in the creative field at all.

You know, they always do things like that.

It's just a way of jumping the tracks

into some, to a different direction.

As opposed to, I would say, and

I've experienced this myself, I'm

sure most of our viewers have as

well, that moment where you just

try and force yourself through it.

You know, you, you are trying to

do something, you're trying to

write something or do something

creative and you just try to push.

You mentally try to like grit

your teeth and think your way

through it, or, you know, it's,

and it's a, it's a horrible moment.

You berate yourself and why can't I do it?

And...

Yeah.

I mean, actually, I mean the real way

of, if you're a writer, this is what I

found is you do need those breaks, but

you also need to, I mean, I just set aside

90 minutes every morning to, to write.

And sometimes I'll just start

with almost random words.

You know, and it's, I'll just start

and it's terrible, you know, I read it

and it it's, it just doesn't make much

sense at all or it's really clunky,

it's ugly, but it doesn't matter.

It kind of gets, gets you moving

and it's, it's the momentum.

Yeah.

I think creativity is about momentum.

It's just, it's turning up.

It's turning up and just doing your best.

Danny, would you care to guide us

through, maybe a short, a short

practice, maybe five, 10 minutes?

Yeah.

My favorite one.

You shouldn't have favorites when

it comes to mindfulness, but I do.

A

secret favorite.

Exactly, exactly.

This is the one I do most days really.

It's, when I do it

myself, it's 20 minutes.

It's the sound of the thoughts meditation.

And for me, I, I go to my local park and

there's a, I have a favorite bench and

it overlooks the city where I live and

I just sit there and I close my eyes and

I just focus on the sounds around me.

And the idea behind the sounds of thoughts

meditation is to see the similarity

between the way sound behaves and

the way your thoughts behave, because

both just arrive as if from nowhere.

You've got no control over them arriving

at all, and the same often really

powerful message that force you to

react and then they just disappear,

just disappear of their own accord.

You've got no control over it at all.

And so it's a, if you really notice that,

it's quite a profound realization when you

realize that you are not your thoughts.

I mean, it's, it's become almost

a cliche, but it is so, so true.

And if there's one message that

rings true from mindfulness

is you are not your thoughts.

And so that's why I love this meditation.

And just to see how your mind just

constantly throws these thoughts

and ideas up and they're very

sticky, you know, you want to react.

And it's extremely difficult not to react.

And in fact, the only way you can not

react is, is really to watch them.

And this, so this is what I

do most mornings, rain, hail

or shine, in my local park.

Really, hail?

Well, maybe not.

So if you could sit upright.

I think you've got the same

chair as me so we'll both make

lots of funny fidgeting sounds.

Oh, we've got matching chairs.

They're all around.

Yeah.

So gently loosen up, loosen your

shoulders and begin to, begin to relax.

And sit upright as much as you can.

So you've got this like very

calm and dignified posture.

And then when you feel ready,

gently, close your eyes.

Begin to pay attention

to the world around you.

What thoughts are here>

And when you feel ready, begin to

move your awareness down to your feet,

where they make contact with the floor.

Just soak up the sensations.

And move your awareness through your

ankles, lower legs, knees, thighs,

hips and then onto your hands and arms.

And feel the breath as

it flows into your body.

And your stomach.

And lower back.

Feel the rise and fall of your shoulders.

When you feel ready, begin to pay

attention to the world, to the sounds.

What sounds are here?

You may hear cars, buses,

aircraft in the distance.

Or the sound of wildlife.

Birds, scampering animals or

sound of the wind in the trees.

Whatever is here, just

just pay attention to it.

Notice how the sounds just arrive.

You have no control over them.

They arrive, linger for a

while, and then just disappear.

They may arrive from the front or the

back, above or below, and left or right.

Try not to become too engaged

with any specific sound.

Just listen to the whole soundscape,

the whole panorama of sound.

After a while, when you feel

already, move your awareness to the

thoughts flowing across your mind.

Notice how they behave like sounds,

Notice how they arrive, linger

for awhile, and then dissipate.

Have no control over your thoughts.

They arise and trigger other

thoughts and then dissipate.

When you become lost in your thoughts,

as you will from time to time,

gently shepherd your awareness back

to the breath for a few moments

and take a mental step back.

Watch your thoughts once again.

When your mind wanders once again,

try not to criticize yourself.

Minds think.

It's what they do.

So gently shepherd your awareness

back to the breath and then pay

attention to your thoughts once again.

If any thoughts are particularly

strong or compelling, gently say to

yourself, remind yourself, thinking,

thinking, worrying, worrying, or

whatever feels the most appropriate.

And then briefly focus on the breath and

begin to watch your thoughts once again.

When you feel ready, begin to

bring this meditation to a close.

Begin to notice the sounds around you.

Gently begin to move and

reconnect with the outside world.

Stretching is always a good one.

Thank you so much for that practice.

Something occurred to me actually,

while we were practicing is that I, I

kind of felt there was even a kind of

resilience that was happening even in

that moment when you, you know, it just

happens moment to moment in meditation,

you, you find yourself lost and then

you come back with some gentleness and

some friendliness, and that feels like

right there is just like doing the rep of

resilience and right there in that moment.

So, and it's a kind of

liberation, I guess.

It's a liberation from the tyranny

of that, that internal voice.

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Just being quiet for a while,

it's just, I don't know.

It's all you need sometimes, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

Is there anything else that you'd like

to share before we close this session?

Yeah.

I mean, everybody understandably

focuses on formal mindfulness practices,

but actually one the most important

things you can do is just be aware

as you go through your day, you know.

Just eating more mindfully, drinking

more mindfully, you know, talking

and listening more mindfully, just

walking down the street, being

aware of what's going on around you.

I mean, that to me is it's

the essence of mindfulness.

The practices themselves are just

there to reinforce that awareness.

And I think that's something that most

people, including me, quite often forget.

Y

Yeah.

You don't want to sort of, I guess

it can be a bit of a, a, o, I don't

want to say the word trap, but it can

be a bit of a tricky thing when you

have the idea that you do meditation

for, you know, 15 minutes a day and

then, and then that's over and then

you just go back to daily life.

But daily life is where it's the most...

This is, this is our lives,

we want to be awake for it.

This is it.

But this is where we

spend most of our time.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

So it's been said that mindfulness has

the capacity to change the world from

the inside out one person at a time.

And so I'm wondering if mindfulness

would to hit critical mass, in your

view, what do you think that would

look like on a, on a world stage?

What kind of changes?

Yeah, I don't think we'd notice.

I think it would just become so normal,

such a part of the paint work that

we'd regard it as entirely normal.

And it would of course

be a far better world.

But maybe we just notice the people

who were unmindful, you know.

We'd, we'd almost need to usher

them off to hospital for a

bit of rest and recuperation.

It would just be a far

better world, you know?

It's not going to happen in the next

few decades, but maybe in 500 years

I think all of these projects have

to be seen as 500 year projects.

Oh, Danny, thank you

so much for your time.

And I definitely highly,

highly recommend your new book.

They're always wonderful, but Matty and

I are both creative people, so we're

already taking ourselves on creative dates

and loving some of the tips in there.

So thank you so much again for believing

in this project and for your time.

And I wish you all the best.