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How to Meditate: Meditation 101 for Beginners
10 Science-Backed Benefits of Meditation
What is Meditation?
How to Meditate: Meditation 101 for Beginners
10 Science-Backed Benefits of Meditation
What is Meditation?
Benefits of Mindfulness: Mindful Living Can Change Your Life
Mindfulness 101: A Beginner's Guide
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Join Melli and Jono as they explore the masculine expression of mindfulness and the redefining of what it means to be a ‘real man.’
I'm your host Melli O'Brien.
And with me today, I'm really delighted
to introduce you to a friend and somebody
that I admire very deeply, Jono Fisher.
And Jono is the founder of the Wake-Up
Project, which is an events and media
company dedicated to one single mission,
to inspire a kindness revolution through
creativity and conscious business.
The Wake-Up Project's really grown
in Australia to be one of the
largest and most trusted communities
centered around mindful living.
And Jono's work in creating this thriving
community has been recognized by the
likes of The Australian Financial
Review, GQ Magazine, UTS Business
Cchool, the Sunday Telegraph, ABC
the Yoga Journal and, and many more.
So Jono, thank you so much
for sharing your time today.
No, it's a pleasure and thank you
for such a generous introduction.
Well, actually, you know, one of the
things that I, that I thought of this
morning when I was looking at your
intro was actually, you know, more
than anything, what I admire about you
personally, is that you strike me as
someone that really walks your talk.
So I think that's what I actually
admire about you most deeply.
Thank you, Melli.
My first question to you is, you know,
growing up, would you say that you had any
kind of inclination towards mindfulness?
You may not have known the word back
then, but do you feel like you were a
spiritually inclined sort of a kid or?
Well, I grew up on a farm.
So in growing up on a farm, we
had, or had lots of time to myself.
Well, so I would be often roaming
the paddocks with my dog and we had
like pet sheep and, and pet horses.
Yeah.
And yeah, I don't think I knew the word.
I wasn't familiar with mindfulness as
a word, but I think as an experience,
being in nature and having all this
space around me, I think kind of
predisposed me to actually really,
really enjoying that space, and also
that connection to nature and sensation.
And, yeah, just a felt sense of kind
of being aware of what was happening
around me and happening inside my body.
So, yeah, I definitely think my
environment as a young person
really helps support, I think, that
being more, more part of my life.
It's interesting that that's a theme that
I hear a lot and resonates with my own
experience, as well, is that when we were
kids, we might not have understood the
concept of anything spiritual, but being
around a lot of people seem, it seems that
when they were alone in nature as children
or having that time, it seems to really
have affected that ability to be mindful.
Yeah.
I think the other thing that's interesting
about that, you know, where you talk
about not knowing the concept, you know,
I was chatting the other day to a, a guy
who was, who, he was the former CEO of a
large bank, the National AustraliaNbank.
And, and I asked him like, are you,
are you familiar with mindfulness?
You know?
And he said, he said, no, I don't
really do any mindfulness things.
And then he began to describe to me
things like getting up in the morning
at five o'clock before the sun came
up to go for a walk with his dog.
And he described how it
was sensory deprived.
And he, he felt this kind of quietness and
stillness that would come into his life.
And it sounded like he was actually
describing a meditation practice, but
he actually never termed it as that.
And yes, I think it's really
interesting thing the, the way in
which a language or term can get in
the way sometimes of people actually
experiencing it in very ordinary ways.
You know, whether that's walking or
swimming or those kind of things.
Yeah.
I couldn't agree with
you more on that topic.
And in fact, since we're talking about
it, and I know we've just spoken about
how, you know, it's a difficult thing
to define, but when you think about
what mindfulness, you know, means
to you, what, what would you say is
your kind of, I don't know,, working
definition or whatever of mindfulness?
Yeah.
I don't know that I have
a working definition.
But as a description, for me, it would
be the ability to become more aware of
what's actually happening in your life.
And what I mean by that too,
is what's happening internally.
So becoming aware of how you're
feeling and, just really what's
going along in your internal
world, but then also becoming aware
of actually what's around you.
And, and for me, I also have
an interest in how that then
gets expressed in your life.
So I, I know that doing that by stilling
your mind, becoming present to how
you're feeling has, has such a great
benefit upon like, you know, your
nervous system and, and stress reduction.
And, and yet I also feel like mindfulness
is so much about how that affects
how you live and I think there's a
natural sense when the body does calm
down of it gives the body a chance
to express different qualities.
So express more kindness or warmth.
But also there's an ability to also show
up more fully in your life, cause I think
you begin to understand and know yourself
better and you can then bring that forward
and people can actually begin to feel
you and begin to feel what you're about.
So yeah, I think it's a very kind of
personal, internal awareness practice,
but then it also affects, I think so,
much of how you live and how you engage
with people in a relational sense.
Yeah.
I don't know if that's a clear definition,
but that's kind of what comes up for
me when, when you asked the question.
Yeah, no, that's beautiful.
Jono, can you describe in your
own experience what it's like,
you know, that snippet of time
where you were on autopilot.
And then you have that, that moment
of waking up into mindfulness.
Can you describe in your own words
what that experience is like for you?
Hmm.
Yeah.
Well, it's, it's very different for
me at different times in my life.
So I can find that one of the initial
things that happens for me when I
become more present or become more
mindful, particularly if I do some
kind of meditation, like some kind of
contemplative practice, often I can
have the experience of actually touching
sadness and I'll kind of like weep or
feel a sense of a sense of sadness.
And I think that's partially to do
with a sense of realizing how much
I've spent, been spending time in
my head or spending time in worry or
anxiety or projecting of thoughts.
And I think there's a natural sense
of sadness, but it's also, I think a
sense of relief in a way to go, Oh,
coming back from living from here up
to kind of coming more in my body.
And I think my body responds
with this kind of with tears.
And it's not like a negative thing to me.
It's actually feels quite beautiful and
more really like a release, more like a
pressure cooker, just, you know, like.
And, and then I think the other, the
other, because it's not, it's, it's,
it's different different times, but it
also feels like a sequential series of
events that happens for me within my body.
The next thing I notice is that I feel
a great sense of rest and a nearly
sinking into my body and, and that also
comes with a feeling of being grounded.
So I feel like, ah,
I'm actually in a body.
I'm on the earth.
I'm here right now.
And there's a sense of perspective that
comes with that, of what was once, you
know, quite complicated or overwhelming,
all of a sudden things become very simple,
very manageable, but also very spacious.
So what I notice when, when I become
present is there's a lot more room within
myself and kind of like around me than.
I initially thought.
So it's really like feeling
contracted and then feeling expanded.
And in that space, I feel this space
for a whole series of emotions or
thoughts to arise and just to be
there in a more comfortable way.
Whereas before, when I'm not present
or I'm actually living in a kind
of a very tight mental condition,
it feels like everything's very
tight and there's not much room.
Yeah.
And I think the other thing that happens
for me is my heart feels more open.
And when that happens, I think
there's a quality of warmth
that arises towards myself.
And so I begin to feel, I think there's
like a reflection that goes on as well.
Like I reflect on what's
happening in my life.
And I think due to some of the practices
that I've, I've, I've learnt, I've
learned to then be kind to myself and be
kind and accepting of what's happening.
I think when that happens
too, then I start to feel more
integrated and feel more whole
and feel just better about myself.
You know, like that I, yeah, the
stories that my mind wants to tell me
when I'm not very present are just,
are just that, are just stories.
And that I and everyone else are
much bigger and much more connected,
and, and than I previously thought.
And I think the challenge with actually
that question, I love the question, but
the challenge with it is too, because
it's so experiential, is that it's often
very hard to translate what is a very
felt experience into, into the words.
But I hope that gives you like
a little sense of what I kind of
experience at times when, when
I, when I become more present.
Yeah.
I think you expressed that
very elegantly, actually.
And I absolutely agree with you that,
and I actually think this is one of
the big challenges in the, if you
could, if you even want to use the word
spiritual, in the spiritual community.
I think it is one of the challenges is
describing something that's such a felt.
Personal inner experience and trying
to translate that back to other people.
It's, it's really not entirely possible,
but, but we use the words like,
you know, whatever, connectedness,
spaciousness, openness, warmth, and,
and it's not really fully definable.
So yeah, it's, it's just not.
Yeah, I think that, I think I
completely agree and I think I might've
indicated earlier, but I, because I've
been interviewing a whole bunch of
people myself lately and, you know.
I've been listening.
Yeah.
And the, and just even guys talking
about like fishing, you know, when they
describe fishing, cause they're often
two guys on their own, often not talking.
Yeah.
They're in nature.
And so I'm going to
describe what's happening.
It's actually very meditative, you know.
And I think that's, I think that's
the beautiful thing that I think
can happen when mindfulness can be
taken across so many other areas.
I think, I think the problem can be
when we, we, we limit mindfulness
to like a stress reduction
course, or a particular training.
And as incredibly helpful as that
is and how supportive I am of that,
but then to also acknowledge and
recognize people being mindful, doing
a whole bunch of other things that
may not be considered a traditional
mindfulness practice, but definitely is.
And I think it can also give
people a sense of okayness about
doing something that isn't formal.
Right.
And that's something I'm really passionate
about because I think, I don't think it
suits everyone to be sitting or to do a
particular kind of training that other
people might find much more benefit in.
Swimming and being really focused on
the practice of swimming, you know?
So yeah, that's kind of
where I am with that.
Yeah.
I am also really passionate about that
same message kind of getting out there
that there's no right way and there's
no right, you know, exact definition.
Sometimes people get really, I
think a little bit rigid around
that and I agree, you know.
And I'm a trained, I'm trained in the,
by the Mindfulness Training Institute
of Australia who does the mindfulness
based stress reduction courses.
And I think that course is
incredibly powerful and I love it.
And I totally agree with you.
There are different ways of
approaching mindfulness for
all kinds of different people.
So, yeah.
It's, I'm really glad that
you, that you brought that up.
Yeah.
I mean, cause to me personally, I
mean, I just don't want to go on.
Yeah.
yeah.
You know, even animals, for me, like
I think animals, particularly dogs.
So inherently just by their
nature, they're, they're very
present and very connected.
And I, think for me, even like when
I'm with the dog or have my arm
around a dog or look into the eyes
of a dog, I naturally start to sync
up with the energy of that dog.
And there is a sense of a very similar
quality that emerges for me that
than if I was kind of meditating.
And so, yeah, I love that you're spreading
that word for the mindfulness to be
kind of accessed in many different ways.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, one thing that your
story, a part, a part of your story that
I would love you to share, because I think
it's it's so, so interesting and valuable
for people to hear about is your journey
from being a young man being in the
corporate world and how you transitioned
from that into starting Wake Up Sydney.
Would you share a little bit about
how that transition happened for you?
Sure.
So, yeah, I was in the corporate world for
about 10 years and things were going okay.
Nothing spectacular, but just okay.
And, you know, everything kind
of on the outside seemed okay.
And, but internally something
didn't feel right for me.
Not, not that being in the corporate
world there's anything wrong with that.
I think it's a great
place for many people.
But for me it felt like there was
something, that I was swimming kind of the
wrong direction, like the stream was going
one way and I was swimming another way.
And my body really started
to be affected by that.
And I had a sense of, probably like
a low grade kind of depression.
Yeah.
I would say, from doing something
that just didn't feel like it
was what I was meant to be doing.
And so actually got to a point where I
really felt quite burnt out doing what
I was doing and wanted to have break.
And so I thought I'll take a couple
of months off and then come back,
come back to the corporate world.
And in those after about three
months, I realized, you know, I
don't think I want to go back.
But also realized I had to make some cash.
And I saw an ad in my local
paper to be a male nanny, right?
A bit of a career change.
Yeah.
It was.
And I l thought, well,
you know, I like kids.
Yeah, maybe I can do that for a
few months and then I'll go back.
Thought it would just buy
me a little bit more time.
And so I got this job looking
after two six-year-old boys.
So twin boys, and I remember the first
night putting them to bed/ I put one
to bed and then put the other one to
bed and he sat up and he looked at me
and he said, I'm so glad you're here.
And I remember having this very
kind of visceral experience in
my body of like, Hmm, I think I
might actually be here for awhile.
And so I was.
I ended up being there for about five
years looking after these two young boys.
And it was a really transformative
experience for me, very difficult at
times, and also incredibly rewarding.
Some of the things that happened for
me that kind of stand out is that
one, I had to really simplify my life.
So I had to kind of really
strip everything down to
kind of bare necessities from
a financial point of view.
And the other thing, and that was
both hard and both really rewarding
at the same time, you know.
I remember there was a time when
I was walking down a park near
where I lived and I think it was
about a year into being a nanny.
And I remember walking down, cause
I didn't start work until like
three o'clock in the afternoon, so
I had most of my days off, you know.
And I was only, I was
working four days a week.
So I had lots of time, lots of
time to explore things that I
always had on the back burner.
So things like, I was really
interested in the wisdom traditions.
I wass interested in the
arts and social change.
And, and now all of a sudden
I had time to kind of do this.
And I remember walking in this park and I
felt like, wow, I have very little in my
life and I was looking around and there
were just beautiful trees and,there was a
kind of a waterway,a creek kind of next
to me and I was walking down to the beach.
And I honestly felt like,
really like royalty, you know.
I felt like, wow, I have everything.
And yet at another
level I had very little.
And that was kind of a very
deep experience for me.
And I continue to have these experiences
of feeling so wealthy and I think it was
very much connected to, I was actually
much more present to my life and my body
and what was actually happening around me.
And it was around that time too, I
got kind of introduced to Eckhart
Tolle's work as well, and that all
started to make a whole lot of sense.
But, but the other thing that happened in
this time was, you know, they were a very
wealthy family that I was nannying for.
And so they'd often have dinner
parties and such, and, Ioften
knew who these people were, right?
And so, you know, they come up to me
and say, hi, you know, who are you?
And I'd say, I'm the nanny.
And nine times out of ten, Melli,
there would be the answer, the response
would be, oh, and then they'd moved on.
Yeah.
And it was literally, it was
like a punch in the guts.
Initially, it was so painful because
I was like, I felt like I dropped
down the bottom of the social status
ladder and I was like a nobody.
And even, you know, my partner and friends
were going, Hey, Jono, like, are you okay?
Like.
If you've kind of lost the
plot in relation to career and
ambition and where you were going.
And, but what happened for me
in that it was, it took about a
year, I think, for me that, until
that wasn't a painful experience.
But it kind of got to a point naturally
where I just started to feel way
more comfortable with who I was,
irrespective of what I was doing.
And there was in the same way with the
walk in the park, there was also this
sense of feeling comfortable with who
I was, separate from what I was doing.
You know, and I think parallel to that,
you know, there's also this relationship
with these two young boys who were
just incredible young boys and that
the friendship and the relationship
and what I was learning from them and
the value and the kind of nourishment
I was getting from actually looking
after them and taking care of them.
And I, my heart was kind of opening
in being with them like that.
So anyway, it's a long way of sharing
some of the things that happened for
me, but then there came a point, Melli,
where I thought I'd really love to bring
together some of the things that I was
learning to value and appreciate during
this time I was a nanny into a community.
And I thought would that, would people
be interested in a community that
came together to celebrate meditation,
interesting speakers, live music,
kind of wine and chocolates and themes
that were really important to me.
And I remember I was having drinks
with a friend, a very dear friend
of mine, and she had kind of been
following my journey along the way.
And she, I was going to start
this out and she said, great.
What are you going to call it?
What are you going to call this community,
this thing you're going to start?
And at that point I was
going to call it Mindful.
So I said to her, I think
I'm going to call it Mindful.
She said, no, no, no, no.
And she is actually in a, in a role
where she does, she produces a lot of
mindfulness-based materials and such.
And I said, well, what do you mean?
Like, why wouldn't, why
can't I call it Mindful?
And she said, it sounds like
you can live in a cave, Jono.
She said, why are you doing it?
And I kind of was like, I kind of told
her, I felt like I told her, I wanted
to bring together these, you know, the
meditation, the arts, good speakers.
And she said, yeah, but why?
Why do you want to do this?
And what just kind of arose within me
was this response was, I said, I feel
like we're sleepwalking, myself included.
And I just want to be part
of it not being that way.
And she said, ah, she said,
you want people to wake up?
And I kind of had the sense of kind
of like nervousness and excitement.
It felt kind of bold.
And yeah.
And I said, yeah, but I don't
want it to be too like spiritual.
And she said, she said,
just get over that.
She said, notice what you want to wake
up to and then follow that impulse.
And if people come along, they come
along, if they don't, they don't.
And that was the kind of the impetus.
And she said, roll your
sleeves up and go to work.
You know, she kind of sent me out.
And I remember booking a cinema about
six years ago and kind of hoping
and praying that people would come.
I was at that event.
Yeah.
In Paddington.
Thanks.
Thanks for being one of those people.
Yeah.
And, and there's just been this
really natural response from people.
And I think, Melli, what's really
the lesson in it for me is how, is
how I believe so many people right
now are so hungry for a deeper sense
or deeper quality in their life.
And I think there's a real dissatisfaction
with the, the myths or the lie that
I think that it's been, that has been
perpetrated, perpetuated around, if I
get something outside of myself, then
that will make me feel really good.
Where I think it's the complete flip.
As you kind of well know, and I think
what the series is all about is that when
you find something in yourself and when
you really learn to connect to what's
going on within yourself, then everything
outside of yourself becomes more
rewarding and becomes very fulfilling.
But that's not the origin
of the fulfillment.
And yeah, so that was, and it's
just, it's continued like that.
So the Wake-Up Project now has
developed into like a big community
of about 70 odd thousand people.
We put on many, many events and
people keep coming, thank goodness.
And more and more people
keep coming or more people.
More and more people, yeah.
And it's, it's and I continue to see
the same kind of thing, you know.
Humans just wanting to get together.
Humans really valuing a contemplative
setting where they can kind of
rest and not feel like they have
to be a certain, certain way.
And then a celebration of the good and
the best qualities of human beings.
Not the ones that are often thrown
to us, you know, through media.
This kind of hyper stimulation, or even
a stimulation of our baser desires.
Well, I shouldn't say baser
desires, but of our kind of like,
of things that actually aren't
going to bring fulfillment.
Right.
Like pleasures, pleasure,
but not fulfillment.
Not fulfillment.
Or, just kind of a sense of like,
if you get this, then you're
going to be happy and it's like.
But then there are all these other human
qualities that very rarely get airplay.
And when they do get airplay and
people start bringing them into
their lives, they go, Oh my gosh,
this is actually where the goal is.
So long way of kind of sharing the
story, but that's, that's kind of
the journey for how Wake Up started.
And another,new thing that you've
started recently is your podcast.
Yeah.
And I've been tuning in.
And I tell you what I'm loving the
most about that podcast is that
you've opened up a conversation
around the masculine expression of
mindful living and the, the really
specific challenges that affect men.
And one of the things that you've
been talking about that, that I'm
just really enjoying hearing people
talking about is redefining what
it is to be, you know, a real man.
And so really breaking
through those, those cultural
ideas around being real men.
So I was wondering if, um, if you would
care to share what you think are the
issues that face men in particular, in
this journey to conscious living and
what you define as being a real man.
Well, what I've noticed, in my own
experience and with other men, is
that there is a kind of a cultural
expectation to show up a particular way.
And that why can be
having it all together.
Yeah.
Carrying the burdens on my own,
and not being, not feeling like
it's okay to share my emotions when
things are difficult or, or even when
I'm just feeling a particular way.
And so
I think there's definitely like a,
like a training that goes on from, I
think, particularly for young boys,
um, that that's just what you do.
And I don't think there's anything
malicious or, or, you know,
overt in, in the desire to kind
of suppress men in that way.
But I think that definitely has
happened and continues to happen.
And I think what I've noticed in these
interview series, is nearly every
man that I've interviewed, you know,
that's from like the Wallabies coach
to CEOs of banks and the 60 Minutes
reporter the other day, a whole bunch
of people that all said, thank you so
much for giving me the chance to talk.
And honestly, Melli I've actually gone
into a lot of these interviews with a
kind of like a slight kind of judgment.
And the judgment has kind of
been really, a man is actually
going to want to talk about this.
Right, Yeah.
A week, is it going to be really awkward?
Are they going to think I'm like a
bit of a dick, you know, to actually
even want to have this conversation.
And within like minutes,
they're actually really into it.
And it's, it's permission to actually
share in a different kind of way.
And I think what I've noticed in
that is that many times in my life,
I've only ever seen men talk like
that after like five beers, you know?
Like a, Oh, there you are.
Right.
There's this real col person
who shares openly and is quite
vulnerable and heartfelt.
So that kind of bravado
starts to soften a little bit.
Yeah.
And often only happens through
something like alcohol, you know,
because for some reason there's
like this, this is conditioning to
feel like I can't do that normally.
But what I'm noticing in these
interviews is that so many men actually
want to just show up as themselves.
And as themselves often is very
warm, very emotional, and, and
deeply caring about other people
and what's happening in the world.
And I've been really deeply
touched by that, really touched.
From just at a personal level, it's
really like, I don't really care if people
like the interviews or not because I'm
having this quite profound experience of
sitting, you know, for an hour plus with
men and just listening to their stories
and listening to what's important to them.
And that's made a massive
difference to my life.
But I think to your question about,
you know, what is a real man and
what does that actually mean?
Nearly every time I've asked any of
the men this, they have all said,
I'm not really interested in that
question about what a real man is.
I'm interested in what's a good human.
Aww.
Yeah.
And I, I feel that, I feel the same
way and I feel like that's also an
indication of where we're going as humans.
You know, that this idea that a man
has to be a particular way or a woman
has to be a particular way is kind
of irrelevant and not necessary.
But what's really important is who
you are as a human, human expression
and a very unique expression.
And as a man, you may have many very
feminine qualities or you'd want
to have very masculine qualities.
But to know that you have full permission
to be yourself and to be yourself
in a kind of an unapologetic way.
But I think particularly for men to know
that the qualities of, like emotional
honesty or kindness, or compassion
or vulnerability aren't weaknesses,
but that are actually huge strengths.
I think when men know that and they're
given permission for that, they
bring it forward and they go, great.
I'm I'm into that.
But if there's any sense of lack, this
is going to be a little, we'll see.
Yeah.
Then they kind of, they kind of hold back
and I think it's part of the conditioning.
But I think what, what I've noticed
while around men who have the ability
to really open their hearts and
really share openly about what's
going on for them in their lives.
And I just feel, I feel so much strength.
And I'm reminded of this,
some, this kind of Buddhist
notion of having a strong back.
So your spine being strong and
nearly upright and noble, but
then having a really soft front.
So being open and
vulnerable and accessible.
And the combination of these two things
is what I'm seeing for me as a, a kind
of more updated version of masculinity.
So you don't want spineless
people or spineless men.
You still want, you don't want to
emasculate men so they're all just
kind of, you know, just all emotional.
But to remind them that this strength and
this dignity and courage and passion, all
these things are so important, but not
to ignore the front part of, you know,
your heart and your emotional world.
And those things together, it's it's
more of a, kind of a, kind of like a
spiritual warrior archetype, where,
where there's enormous strength and yet
enormous softness that is there as well.
Kind of simultaneous as opposed
to like one or the other.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm just, really loving
that conversation being opened up.
I'm really looking forward to, you
know, the conversations that you're
having with men and it's around
these kinds of topics, but as a, as a
woman, I'm really just loving hearing.
So I'm going to be
continuing to tune into that.
Thanks, Melli.
Now that the other thing that I wanted
to kind of get your, your perspective
on was, you know, I read recently on
a website, your, your profile was on
a website called Conscious Capitalism.
And I was recently speaking to Mark
Williams, Professor Mark Williams,
who you probably know of who founded
the Oxford Centre for Mindfulness.
And we were talking about how mindfulness
would potentially go mainstream.
And he said, he thought one of the real
important factors in that was going to
be CEOs and business people and leaders
taking up mindfulness as a way of living.
And that's something that
you're really involved in.
A lot of your events are about
mindful leadership, mindful business.
And so I wanted to kind of get your
perspective on what, what do you
think, what does conscious capitalism
really mean to you and what does it,
what do you think that's that looks
like, you know, on a day-to-day basis?
Maybe you can even relate because
you're a business person as well, and
you're in a leadership role and, yeah.
So whatever your perspective
is on that, be lovely.
Yeah.
I think it's a really great question.
And, look, I think, first of all,
I'm really aware that capitalism
is a, it's a flawed kind of system.
It's not perfect, you know, as
people are not perfect and you know,
that we could do many more things
to improve the way that we operate.
So that's kind of like one thing that
I've kind of parked on one side, because
I think there's a whole debate to be had
about, is capitalism, the right system.
And it's like, well, that's okay.
I see lots of areas that we
can improve on that, you know.
There's this kind of, it's kind of
unquestionable, but then at the same
time, it's the system that we have.
You know, I think this is another
one of these things about being
present is actually with, this
is the reality of our world.
And so to work within the reality, you
know, is, is such an important thing.
And what I've noticed with bringing more
mindfulness into, so we do two things,
one we've, we're partnered with Google's
Search Inside Yourself program, which
brings kind of emotional intelligence
and mindfulness and compassion based
practices to executives here in Australia.
And we also have a mindful leadership
event, which brings together
executives within the Australian
corporate community to explore, what
does it mean to be a mindful leader.
And what we mean when we say a mindful
leader is really to become more
self-aware, to become more authentic
and become more compassionate.
So it's not just mindfulness on its own.
It's actually mindfulness with, with its
other cousins, so to speak that make up
what we would say like mindful leadership,
like a different way of actually leading.
And I have seen so many signs of how,
how beneficial this is to people.
I mean, I initially thought Jesus,
is this the right thing to be doing?
Is this the right thing to be doing to
introduce what are kind of apparently
ancient practices into a modern context?
And will that be used in a way that
just exploits or does things that
aren't really helpful for human beings?
Yeah.
And what I've noticed is that the
practices in, in and of themselves, and
also the, what happens to people when they
get reminded of these kinds of qualities
or these different ways of being is that
people change and people start to go, Huh.
Maybe we should be doing things
a little differently around here.
It's it's never like, Oh great.
Now we can make this much more money
and we can be this much more productive.
There is, there is a productivity
element that happens.
People do become more, I think, efficient
and focused and all these other great
things from a business point of view.
And that's very clear,.
But I think there's a
bigger thing that happens.
And the biggest thing is.
Could we do things
differently around here?
Could we, and also people start asking
questions like, what is their motivation?
Why are we even going to work?
And are the people here, are
they kind of pawns in a, in
a, in a kind of a chess game?
Or are they fellow humans that I
need to treat with kind of dignity
and compassion and could even a
workplace become more like a family
where people are treated really well?
So I have grown to witness
individuals learning these practices.
Yeah.
And particularly leaders.
And, and, and trusting that these
practices won't bringing out
the worst in people, it won't
bring out any more narcissism.
It actually brings out more reflection,
consideration, and qualities like
authenticity and compassion, which is
then, which then influence how business
is done, how teams are put together,
how people relate to one another.
And then, you know, ultimately, business
is the driving force of the world.
Hopefully this will move the needle
a little closer to actually business
becoming a force for good in the world.
And that would be my great hope.
And I actually think it can happen.
It's that people will wake up within
their organizations and go, hey, we
don't have to have this organization
completely collapse in order for us
to rebuild something that might work.
We could actually do it from within here.
And that's, that's my hope.
And that's what I do see happening
at a very small level right
now, but I could see it actually
moving more and more towards that.
Yeah.
That's a wonderful vision.
And I think it's, it's happening.
It's happening slowly.
But there are a lot of, it's
amazing, isn't it, when you hear,
actually, I really liked tuning
into Tim Ferriss' podcasts as well.
And you know, it's fascinating.
He said the, I think, the number one
consistent thing that all of these
people who are really successful
do every single day is meditate.
Yeah.
Really.
So there's a lot of very high profile,
successful people who meditate.
But now this becoming a bit more
mainstream, they're all fessing up
that they've been doing it for years.
So, yeah, I do think...
Yeah.
And another interesting thing,
Melli, I'd just like to bring into
that as well, because I think that's
there's two things come to mind.
One is I also think there is a, you know,
when people talk about, you know, kind of
changing the world and such, I think like
creativity is such a, a key part of that.
And I, I really don't think
that creativity can be fully
accessed without some kind of
contemplative practice, you know?
And I think that's what painters and
writers are actually ,what's happening
for them is they're actually in a...
We're back.
Okay.
So you were saying that artists and
contemplative people go into that state.
Yeah.
So I think there's a, I think
creativity is such a, such an important
thing for our world right now.
I think it's one of the only things
we have to actually find the solutions
we need to improve our world.
And I think contemplative practices
and mindfulness itself is a means for
tapping another form of intelligence
that's often beyond their own mind.
You know, I think we can kind of,
you know, the whole idea of like
brainstorming or, you know, is kind
of a strange notion because it's often
tossing around the same kind of ideas.
And then I think when people
become still and quiet, something
fresh and new can emerge.
And I think that's where some
of the best ideas happen.
So that's one part of also that I think
really relates to business and leadership.
But the other thing I found really
interesting the other day, I
interviewed a guy named Jack Heath.
I listened to that interview.
It was brilliant.
Yeah.
And he was talking about like
when he was in Parliament.
And what I know that it, he, he mentioned
how in politics, and you probably
remember this, that so many politicians
today have very little time to reflect.
And as a result, you know, the quality of
decisions that are being made are so such
so, so much lower than what they could be.
And I think this also points to the need
for, you know, politicians as well to be
given the opportunity to learn practices
like mindfulness practices, not only
for their wellbeing, but so they can
actually have the time and the space to
make a good decision or a good policy
that can influence the whole world.
So, you know, mindfulness to me is soo...
Sure, it originates at a very personal
level, but has such big implications
for the world if it's taken seriously.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's, it's been said, as my, my final
question, it's been said that mindfulness
has the capacity to change the world
from the inside out one person at a time.
So my question to you is, what kind
of a world, if, if mindfulness were to
really hit critical mass, so, I mean,
sometimes people say mindfulness has gone
mainstream, but I think, you know, when it
hits critical mass, you know, I'm talking
a billion or 2 billion people, what kind
of a world do you see that that would be?
Hmm.
Well, that's a big question, Melli.
Look, I think what comes to my mind
when you ask that is one of the
greatest qualities that I think
emerges when people become present
and become mindful is kindness.
So they become kind, their heart
begins to lead their life a little more
than their mind leading their life.
So the kind of world that I see is where
people value this moment right now and
the opportunity to be kind in this moment.
And I think it's the multiplication of
those little acts of kindness that will
create a very different world and a very
different level of connection with one
another, as a kind of a human family.
We will literally be like kindness.
You know, the first three words is kin.
We will, we will have that
sense of family again.
We are not separate individual
beings that have no responsibility or
connections to other people, but we are
profoundly connected to one another.
And I think the other thing that I
think will happen, and I think that
is happening, I think particularly
out of the Silicon Valley world that's
pointing to that is, I think we'll
be in a much more creative state.
So I think a lot of the problems we have
will potentially be, being solved or
solved through people having the space to
create, rather than being on a treadmill
where I often don't get a chance to
express something unique into the world.
So they're the two things that come to
my mind as what I think will happen when
mindfulness becomes more, more, more
and more mainstream into people's lives.
Because I think naturally, in my
experience, that's what naturally happens.
Yeah.
I'm not saying I'm like the most
kindest, creative person, but I know
when I am more present, they're the
two qualities, they're the two things
that seem to happen also for me.
So, you know, I would love
and hope that that becomes a
little more so in the world.
Well on that note, thank you so
much for the work that you do
in helping to create that world.
And thank you so much for your time today.
Is there anything else that you
want to share before we close up?
I really want to acknowledge
you and what you're doing with
this course and this program.
I think a lot of people see
these kind of things and can just
think they come out of thin air.
You know, well Melli just woke up and she
started a course and I want to, and I,
I know how much work and time and effort
and phone calls and emails and Skypes and
administration and technical things go
into making something like this happen.
So, I just want to acknowledge you
and thank you for doing that because
it's a real gift to the world.
And the aspirational last question you
asked about this going into the world and
becoming more mainstream happens because
people like you do a course like this.
And so I just want to say thank
you for including me and, and
for putting this together.
Aww, thanks, Jono.
And, I, yeah, I think you and I
both have a, a similar passion
and want to be part of a similar
vision for tomorrow in this world.
So yeah.
It's my pleasure to do this.
So, thank you so much for tuning
in and I'll see you next time.
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