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Technology, Mindful Business & Leadership

Dan Siegel & Caroline Welch & Melli O'Brien






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Technology, Mindful Business & Leadership

In this interview, Melli speaks with Dan and Caroline about how technology addiction and digital overload can affect our brains, along with practical tips on using the technology in your life with more wisdom and skill.

I'm your host, Melli O'Brien and I'm so

excited to be here right now with Dr.

Dan Siegel and Caroline Welch.

Dan is an internationally acclaimed

author, an award-winning educator

and clinical professor of psychiatry

at the UCLA School of Medicine.

Dan's latest book is

called the Mindful Brain.

And it's really, I think, it's a

groundbreaking book on bringing

together science and spirituality.

Caroline is the CEO of

Mind Your Brain, Inc.

And her experience in law and business,

as well as mindfulness has really

made her an expert on mindfulness

for business and mindful leadership.

Dan and Caroline, thank you so much for

taking this time out for the summit.

I know you're busy at the moment.

Thank you, Melli.


Thanks for having us.

I want to talk a little bit, to begin

with, about the particular challenges

that I think we face in this digital

era of constant connectivity because

I think we all know, intuitively,

experientially, that technology is

a bit addictive and that too much

exposure to it is not that great for us.

So my question to you is what do

you think we should all really know

about the way that technology affects

our brains and therefore our lives.

Well, excuse me, I just have to

answer an email before I answer that.


Just give me a second.

No, no.

Hang on.

I just got a call.


You start with the brain and then I'll

talk about what it does to our lives.


Well, I mean, you know, the, the,

there's so many things to say about it.

One is, you know, screens of all

sorts, whether it's computers or

tablets or smartphones, draw you in.

And part of that can be wonderful

and fantastic, different ways we

get involved with stories or even

connecting with people can be wonderful.

So we have to make sure not

to put things down that really

have some wonderful attributes.

The problem is it becomes so

compelling to look outward.

That we forget to look inward and the

circuitry of the brain that Caroline is

inviting us to start with is, you know,

very different when you reflect inward.

And so my concern about the brain and

technology is that people are so busy

looking outward, outward, outward,

visual stimuli, sounds, different

things that draw you compellingly to

look at these screens are not the same

as just going inward or looking at

another person in a conversation and

soaking in the seven big non-verbal

signals - eye contact, facial expression,

the tone of voice, gestures, posture,

the timing, the intensity of response.

All those are mediated in a certain part

of the brain, mostly the right hemisphere,

very different from what's usually

activated when you're looking at a screen.

So those are ways we get to feel

the inside of another person,

have mindsight to see the mind.

The mindsight circuitry, it

needs to be cultivated to

stay strong and to grow well.

And I'm just concerned that the

way things are now in the digital

world, doesn't really cultivate

mindsight circuitry in the brain.

And what I'd like to add to that is

to remind ourselves that our devices

don't come with rules and regulations.

And we all want the next iPhone or the

next iPad, but we don't necessarily

know when and how to use them.

And I think that it's up to individuals,

it's up to families, it's up to businesses

to have the, the culture that reflects

what that unit, that individual or that

company thinks is best for it its people.

And a couple of examples that come to

mind, and, and I, I often think, Dan

coined the term, the internet is really

the infinet, because you just sit down to

do a couple of emails and the next thing

you know, it's an hour and a half later.

And so it is quite a time zap.

And the other thing is that I

think some in corporate America

use it as a validation stamp.

Like at 2:00 AM this morning,

I returned your email.

And it becomes almost a contest,

like who's up the latest, and these

are people in different time zones.

They're like up at 2:00

AM, wherever that is.

And so, and, and on the other hand you

have culturesm I know for example, we, we

have a colleague who just started in a,

one of the studios here in Los Angeles.

And he made a move as a

practicing lawyer out of private

practice and he went in-house.

And his first Friday afternoon there

at his new job, he sent out an email.

And his colleagues are like,

what are you doing sending

something out late on a Friday?

And he had to learn that, well,

wait a minute, they have certain,

you know, almost sacred, but.

In private practice for many lawyers,

you send and receive emails and you

go into your office seven days a week.

And so he had to adjust his use of

email and phone during that time.

And I know I, I heard a

talk with you, an interview.

I think with Dan recently, you were

talking about the effects of how

many of us are getting more and more

sleep deprived because we're using,

staring at screens late at night.

Well, if you take Caroline's example of

this, someone writes something at 2:00 AM.

You think about what that does,

you know, your, your brain needs

to know it's getting dark outside.

It starts to secrete the, the,

the chemical called melatonin.

It gets you sleepy.

You're getting ready to go.

The lights are lower.

You slowly get ready for sleep.

But instead you have these backlit

screens that are now shoving photons

at your brain, telling your brain it's

daytime, it's daytime, it's daytime.

Well you're wide awake.

So you do emails, but the

emails make you wide awake.

So then you do more emails,

et cetera, et cetera.

And you know, we now know that

you need to sleep to clean up

the toxins out of your brain.

So while it seems like a badge

of honor, you know, honor to say,

Oh, I'm up at two, am doing this.

It's actually a bag, a badge of a

garbage can because you're just treating

your brain like a toxic waste dump.

And instead of cleaning it up

on a regular basis, you're just

allowing it to accumulate toxins

and it's just not good for anything.


And you would imagine in the long

term, that's going to make us less

productive, not more productive.

You might be up thinking that you're

getting all this wonderful stuff done,

but then you end up sleep deprived.

And the next day not thinking

straight and probably over eating

and doing all those things that we

do when we have sleep deprivation.


I was going to add that.

I think the more we learn about the

importance of sleep, because I think, many

of us grew up in a time when we prided

ourselves in not needing too much sleep.

And that seemed fine cause we

thought we were functioning fine.

But the more we learn about the

role, for example, of the glial

cells that Dan alluded to, in

terms of cleaning up our brains.

And the more we know that, you know,

physiologically something really

important happens when we sleep.

I think we have to pay attention to

that and really understand that it's a

very important part of our wellbeing.

And what can we do to, what can

we do to buffer ourselves of the

effects of this information age?

Obviously there's a huge upside

as we mentioned, but there's

a big downside here as well.

What can we do to use technology

with a bit more wisdom and skill?

So I think one thing is to limit

your time with technology, you know.

For example, you might set an

alarm for when it's time to turn

off your machines, you know.

So you make a conscious

decision about that.

I'm going to use it for this

amount of time and then it's...

Yeah, I mean, for myself, I actually

try not to use a computer after 8:00 PM.

You know, maybe I'll read on, you

know, a non backlit electronic

reader, if I'm going to do any kind of

electronic thing, but it's not backlit.

So I really try to honor that and I

try not to do emails after that time.

So for me, 8:00 PM, you know, is a good

time to give me an hour and a half, two

hours of really non-electronic living.


You know, it's really, really important.

You just have to look at people you know

now going to dinner with each other.

And Caroline and I go to dinner

sometimes, we'll see people

at a table together texting.

I, I hope they're not texting each other,

but they're texting out into the world.

And everyone's just on

their screens all the time.

You get an elevator, for instance,

no one talks to each other.

It's it's really sad.

Yeah, I actually heard...

Go ahead.


I was just going to say, I mean,

it's reminding me, when you sit in a

meeting, if one person pulls out their

phone, then it goes around the table.


Then it's, it's everybody.

It's contagious, yeah.

And I've heard now, as a little bit

of a backlash to this, all the time is

that people are now going to dinner,

parties and restaurants, and everybody

puts their phone in the middle of the

table so that nobody, it's kind of

like a way of honoring each other.

I'm actually going to be here with

you during this time where they

switched their phones off before,

which I think is really lovely idea.

Well, I have heard of some studies, I

haven't seen the study itself that said,

if you just see a phone sitting on the

table, even if you know, you're not

using it, it changes the emotionality

of the co, of the conversation.

Yeah, I read about that too.

It's fascinating.

It just reminds you, you know, that

somehow that there's a whole digital world

out there and we need to be superficial.


And is there anything, I'm curious

to know, knowing everything that you

know, about how technology affects us.

What are the other little, what are the

things that you both do on a daily basis?

Do you have little habits or

practices or, or other little things

that you do to kind of use tech

with more consciousness and wisdom?

I can, I can tell you that I

try to not look at my phone

first thing in the morning.

And to feel like my day starts with

a mindfulness practice of 30 minutes.

and I don't...

You're very devoted to that.

talk to anyone before that.

Including me.


And I was just going to

say if I've meditated yet.

And that feels like a blanket around me

the rest of the day cause it feels like

a really owned the day at the outset.

And the other thing that's been very

helpful to me in organizing my day is

that I don't look for email continuously.

I say, okay, maybe at 10, 12, 2,

if it can be that kind of day.

Just have a period when I look at

it and try to resist that urge we

have to be answering immediately.

And that, I think that, that leads

to a more peaceful work environment.

And less I imagine, because I feel

like technology really spreads our

attention thin a lot of the time.

You're doing an email and then there's a

text and then there's a this and a that.

And I imagine that that, that kind

of deliberacy around those processes

kind of, it's very contained.

And then you can just leave it.

So I imagine that's kind of bringing

the focus, bringing more mindfulness

into that use of technology.

Well, Caroline is very inspiring

for me because, you know, she's

been meditating for a long, long

time, decades, and I would just

see her doing this very regularly.

And I wouldn't know what in the world

she was doing, but I figured it was good.

That was before The Mindful Brain.

Good to know.

Now he can tell us what is going on.

That's right, I mean I found mindfulness

totally by accident using the word mindful

in a book for parents I wrote with Mary

Hartzell, we said be conscientious.

Anyway, people ask us when we

were meditating, the only person I

knew that meditated was Caroline.

But I didn't know why they were asking.

And they said, well, because you

said mindfulness is a fundamental

principle of good parenting.

I said, yeah, it means being

intentional and conscientious.

They said, no, it means meditating.

And I said on a meditation

app, I go, what?

Mindfulness meditation.

So anyway, I, you know, I guess

I feel very grateful to you,

Caroline, for teaching me about the

importance of a personal practice.

I, myself, you know, have this thing

I do called the wheel of awareness.

So for me, that's, that's

my regular practice.

Sometimes I really feel I need to move.

And so I've been doing some

Chi Gong lately and that's

been really, really nice.

You know, I just think it's really

important that what you're saying that

you start the day without technology.

You, you start the day with reflecting

inward in whatever way works for you in

general, or for you that particular day.

But you, you do it and you honor that.

You know, and some people say,

well, I don't have time to do it.

And I say, well, do you have

time to brush your teeth?

And they go, yeah.

I said, well, this is like

brushing your brain, you know.

This is way of developing mental

hygiene and not just dental hygiene.


So it's, it's all the research now.

I mean, The Mindful Brain came

out like almost eight years ago.

So and I've written a bunch of books

since then, but what's been fun about

the books that have come out since The

Mindful Brain is to look at all the

amazing science that tells you, you know,

what Caroline has been doing for decades.

And what I just learned to do recently.

You increase your immune system's

functioning, you improve your

cardiovascular profile, you improve a

level of your enzyme called telomerase,

that repairs and maintains the ends of

your chromosomes, which is really cool.

Those ends of chromosomes get

whittled down with age and stress.

So it's good anti-aging, anti

stressing to do mindfulness practice.

You also integrate your brain basically.

The differentiated parts of

the brain become more linked.

So in all these ways, you actually,

conceptually anyway, have a healthier

body that's going to live longer.

You're happier.

You're, you have more empathy

and compassion so you're more

connected to other people.

So it's, it's really something

everyone should be doing.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

You already know that, that's why...

I couldn't agree more.

I'm heavily biased.

But yeah, the research at this point

is, it is so compelling and that's why

actually, that's what I really love

about your, about The Mindful Brain

and so many other wonderful authors at

the moment and people who bring out like

Judson Briggs and Matt Killingsworth and

Mark Williams who are talking about, you

know, really amazing bodies of research to

show us why mindfulness is so beneficial.

You know, when it comes explaining

mindfulness and why it's really, why

it's really great for us, I think your

handy model of the brain is actually

one of the most simple and fun and, and

elegant descriptions of mindfulness.

You knew you weren't going to get

through this interview without

having to do the handy model.

I have a few of them here.

Here's one.

There's another one.


There's three across the world.


You know that the handy model

of the brain is very handy.

Our daughter says, don't

say handy dad, but anyway..

It's, it is handy.

It's it's, you know, it's, your,

your brain is oriented like this.

So you have your, your cortex on the top.

And the front most part of the cortex

is the prefrontal cortex, which links

the cortex, the middle part, the limbic

area and the brainstem along with

stuff from the body through the spinal

cord and then even the social world.

So five sources of energy and information

flow, the cortex, the limbic area,

the brainstem, the body and the

social world are all coordinated and

balanced by the prefrontal cortex.

So it allows you to engage with other

people, it allows you to engage with

yourself, it allows you to balance

your body, allows you to take your

fight-flight-freeze response of the

brainstem, it allows you to take

your emotions, your attachments,

other people and blend all that

stuff together into a coherent life.

So we we say that mindfulness creates

a more integrated brain, literally

this area of the brain among others,

is one that contributes to linking

the differentiated parts together.

In science now, we're

calling that the connectome.

It connects, interconnected body

and mindfulness increases the

integration of the connectome.

And so now we know all that.

The, the exciting thing is that when a

brain is integrated, then it's regulated.

So you regulate emotion and effect,

you regulate attention, you regulate,

thought you regulate behavior, regulate

relationships, you regulate all of these

wonderful things that come under the term

executive functions or self-regulation.

And this is why mindfulness

is good in so many ways.

As Caroline is saying, you know,

start the day that way, and you

create a state, for 20 minutes,

half an hour or whatever it is.

With repeated practice, a state of

activation of the brain that you

create on purpose becomes a trait in

your life because neurons are firing

together because of an intentionally

created state of integration, become the

trait of a, an interconnected system,

the brain, that then is literally

integrated so that you're more regulated.

So it's a win-win situation.

So if a person like Caroline, and like

yourself now, was practicing mindfulness

for over and over again, lots of

repetition, the neurons are firing

together and wiring together over and over

again, and this is going on for months or

years at a time, what kinds of changes

then would you see, would, would you

expect to unfold in that person's life?

In the brain you mean, or in?

Well, I guess in the brain

and in behavior as well.


So you mentioned.

Reunion and I wasn't there at

your reunion with you, but I

could see from photographs.

I mean, one thing is literally the parts

of the brain that gets thinner with

age don't get thinner in meditators.

So, you know, people can look at a person

who's meditating a long time and they can

be, they can see, decades younger than,

or colleagues at a high school reunion.

Now, that's all you need

to say to us ladies.

That's about it.

We don't need any other benefits.

So, so, so the way to think about it

is presence, you know, is a wonderful

thing for how we go through life.

To be present is a way of very

simply defining what mindfulness

is about is being aware of what's

happening as it's happening, letting

go of judgments, not getting swept

up by expectations and trying to

really be with a coal state of mind.

C O A L, curious, open,

accepting, and loving.

So that's, and then you get a glow.

Yeah, hopefully.

Though, more seriously, just the,

you know, in terms of the impact on

your life in you come to experience a

certain energy and a certain liveliness

and you come to be confident that

you can take in whatever comes.


You can handle it.

And that is a really reassuring and

positive attitude to have and think

that you have that kind of capacity.

Hmm Hmm.


That's great.


And that, that capacity is

really a kind of resilience,

you know, and, and a readiness.


And I think you touched on something that

when you said, you know, when you said it

makes you sort, I can't remember the words

you used, it makes you feel more alive.

It really, it really reminded me, as

you said that io something, something

that Jon Kabat Zinn often said,

you know, is that mindfulness is

almost like a love affair with life.

It's much more rich and

vivid and, and yeah.

One thing that there's a lot of buzz

around at the moment is bringing

mindfulness into the corporate world.

And I think it's wonderful that

there's a lot of buzz around that.

But I'm curious to know from, from

your perspectives, why you think

mindfulness in business is important?

Well, I would say it's important

because, first of all, we all

spend so much time with our work.

And we give our work, in many cases, the

best hours of our day and our best energy.

So, to combine our being present and being

mindful with that work is very important.

And I think that, as Dan mentioned,

there are so many benefits to the

mindfulness and it improves our executive

functioning and our focusing, and all

of that is really important in business.

And I think business is becoming as we

watch Aetna insurance or Starbucks, or,

you know, it's not just the tech companies

or just Google, there are many old line

firms and companies now that are rolling

out yoga and meditation, because there's

a huge interest in the whole being,

and a key part of that is mindfulness.

One thing, I think that there's

a bit of a myth still around.

I hope it's being broken already,

but the, the myth of multitasking.

I think, you know, this idea, I think it's

sort of permeated culture in the Eighties

that, you know, you could multitask

and do as many things as possible.

But I think the research is pretty

compelling now that tells us that, that

actually makes us much less productive.

And that mindfulness has, you know,

gives us that focus to do one thing

at a time and just do it really well.


So I think we've all experienced the, the

peril of multitasking because we can't

remember if we too our vitamin E or not,

because we were already in our work mode

or already making our list for the day.

So yes, I think we have our

own little studies every day...


that being distracted is,

it isn't what we thought.

And it is kind of ironic because I

think there was a time in corporate

America when we thought multitasking

was a skill that you should aspire to.


It was like a badge of honor.

I can do, you know, have a phone call

here and be doing this here and I'm

driving at the same time and yeah.

And you've worked in corporations.

I mean, I'm more like an academic person,

so I, I, you know, I'm more like that.

But in corporations there weren't

really many mindfulness protocols or

strategies when you were in companies.

Caroline has worked in

some interesting companies

I don't like to generalize, but I

think if you are in a, a corporate

law practice, it may not be the

environment where you'll find as

much mindfulness as in some places.

And, so that, that's the first thing.

And it's very, however as I, I gave

the example earlier of the lawyer

who went from private practice to a

studio, it's very company dependent

and it really depends upon what the

leaders have set out for the company

and what your department's lead is.


And if you were the head of a really

large organization, like a multinational

organization, what kinds of policies and

procedures would you put in place so that

people could work more mindfully and more

focused and kind of minimize distractions?

Well, I think we, we hopefully

are working on this, even though

we don't have a big company.

We're practicing every day to bring

it here to our, our little engine

that could, but we try to give

people their own sense of their

tasks or a given day or their work.

And we have check-ins or meetings

about what needs to be done, but

then people work at their own pace.

I don't think there's any sense that, you

know, I need to stay late or I have to

work through lunch or, I mean, we really.

First, I'm a lawyer, so I'm always

following the labor laws and people

can't, you know, can't not have lunch.

So you're allowing them rest.

Yeah, rest is so important or take,

you know, fortunately our offices

are just an, a block from the ocean,

but we have a beautiful park out

there and daily, at least once, maybe

multiple times we say, take a break,

go out to the ocean, take a walk.

And I know that works for me.

I come back feeling so refreshed

or make a, make an espresso.

We have an espresso machine in

the, in the kitchen, you know.

A decaf.

But these little, little things

or, you know, also just try

to be in touch with people.

If it's a birthday or it's a something

in the family, happy or sad, just

try to hold all of that for people.


Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, this, when you mentioned,

the park and nature, there's some amazing

studies even on just awe, on how it is

to try to have an experience of being

a part of something more vast than your

personal private bodily-based self is.

Whether it's looking at beautiful

trees or out at the sunset, or really

getting a sense of your being part of

a much larger whole, is really for you.

It's not only you, it helps you feel happy

and healthy, but it actually, studies

amazing, studies show it has, you want

to reach out to help other people more.

Really there's a fascinating

study at UC Berkeley.

Dacher Keltner was talking about the

other day, where they had students

look at a grove of beautiful, actually,

eucalyptus trees from down under.


And there was this gorgeous

tree there at UC Berkeley, a

set of trees, beautiful trees.

And the other set of students

were looking at a, a building.

You know, it was a fine building,

but just staring at a building.

They didn't know what they were doing.

They were aiming in that direction.

And then they had a shill, you know, a

person part of the research that no one

knew, fall down and drop their backpack

and out spill all these pens, right.

It actually calculated that the person

staring at trees was much more likely to

help the person who spilled the backpack

and pick up a lot more pens and pencils

than the person staring at the building.

Oh, wow.

The only difference in the variables.

And it just gave you a feeling like, wow,

it isn't just about me, me, me, me, me.

I'm a part of a larger whole, and

I'm going to reach out to help

people, even if it's something like

someone's dropped their backpack.

That's so fascinating.

So the, the sense of just, just

tuning into the fact that we're part

of this interconnected web of life

naturally just makes us feel more

compassionate and kind and empathetic

towards the whole, the whole circle

of life, I guess you could say.


That's that's what awe does.

Aww, that's lovely.


Because you know, you know why I

said that's because I've got trees.

You're surrounded, you're

actually surrounded by a frame

of trees as we're talking.

So maybe, it's working.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it is awesome, literally.

Well, I've heard studies on the power

of green too, and looking at parked,

you know, things in the park or the,

like you're mentioning the trees.

There is a basis for that.

Yeah, yeah.

It's instant, it's, it's instantly

like a feeling of like tranquility.

That's amazing.


What does mindful leadership mean to you?

And, and what does that actually

look like on a daily basis?

I mean, I hear the term thrown around

a lot, but, but what is it really?

Mindful leadership to me means

that I, as the leader, model that.

And so I try, even when, or especially

when things get challenging, to take that

time to make my response, not to react.

And try to remember that we don't have

to fix and answer everything right away.

And so that, that's been very helpful.

And I think the more I do that,

the more I see my team do that.

And people feeling in, in the, in, in the

office, the space to say, I'll get back

to you on that or I'll figure that out.

So I think that modeling, I also think,

I try to, to have a balance and I try

certain days to leave at a certain time.

And that also, I think sends a message.

It sends a message of freedom, hopefully

that others can make their schedules.

And, so I think that's probably the key

is just modeling what that looks like, and

then feeling grateful when it actually is

exhibited in the people with whom we work.


It's beautiful.

I would just say yes.

That's great.

What I love about what you're saying

is that it's about embodiment rather

than telling other people, you

know, how to be more mindful because

that never really works anyway.

But yeah, I love that.

So it's about, it's about embodying

it yourself and allowing other people

to, to just see that and act as they

will, emulate it if they want to.

And, Hmm.

I just have one more question.

Dan, a little while ago, you did a

talk at Spirit Rock and during that

talk, you said that, and I quote,

"The only way that we're going to save

this planet is through awareness."

And I was wondering if you would

care to speak to that a little.


I guess it says a number

of different things.

One is an acknowledgement that the planet

is going through a lot of transitions

because of what people have done in

certain ways by being on automatic pilot.

So the opposite of everything,

Caroline, just, you described

about mindful leadership, just

sort of mindless leadership in

a way, but from each individual.

And, and also I think part of what's

happened in modern times is not only

is the population grown so much, but

people have been, all around this planet,

East and West, you know, been feeling

I think this push to be acting as if

they're kind of the only thing thatexists

in the world, is the individual self.

And that sense of interconnectivity

in modern life has not really

been acknowledged so much.

So,that and combined with some of the

things we've inherited in our nervous

system, that makes in-group out-group

distinctions where, when there's a lot of

stress and a lot of hostility, you start

treating people in the in-group better.

You're inclusive group, you

treat them with more kindness.

Yes, that's fine.

In group altruism is

what some people call it.

But the outgroup you treat

with a lot more hostility.

And we have a lot of tension in the

world today, so those innate proclivities

of ingroup, outgroup distinctions, and

racism, for example, the tendency for

the self, as Einstein would call it, to

have the optical delusion of a psychotic

belief of its separateness from others

and the world, nature and its whole,

that optum delusion is, unfortunately,

a vulnerability of the nervous system to

believe its own story of individuality

as being the only thing that's there.

So yeah.

What I mean by awareness is what's

going to be needed, is to rise

above those innate vulnerabilities.


You know, we need to have the

development of everything the three

of us have been talking about today

and everyone probably listening.

This is curious about or practicing

themselves, which is to drop beneath

the brain's proclivities for how

you think and feel, and react

and even have a sense of self.

And that's done through awareness.

In our view, you know, we, we were at

the Mindsight Institute, we talk about

mindset being insight into yourself,

empathy for others and integration.

And here the kind of integration I

think that's going to be called for

is a transformation of identity.

So instead of just a private self

identity as a me, and even more

than just being a we, which is

also good, a collective identity to

the integrator identity, we try to

encourage them as mwe, me-we combined.

And that allows you to take care

of your body, sleep well, enjoy

your body, you know, feed your body

well, exercise it, that's all good.

That's me, me, me.

That's fine.

We, is how we're interconnected

with each other, that's fine too.

And to bring them together, mwe,

I think is what the transformation

of human identity and human

awareness can allow that to happen.

And do you think if, if that awareness,

if that awareness was to hit critical

mass, you know, there were say, like,

let's say a couple of billion people

on the planet regularly practicing

mindfulness, really starting to build

that capacity for awareness, you

think that's the world, what kind of

a world would we create through that?

I think that we could create a world

like that if we were together and

the reason I'm so enthusiastic about

it is because I think that cultural

evolution can be intentionally

nudged in a certain direction.

We may not be able to do

everything, but I think together,

really, we can make this happen.

And I really, I'm very,

very excited about it.

I think the world is seeing that

there is no necessity for there to

be a boundary between science and

spirituality and society and schools.

So those four things can come together.

The education in schools, the media and

what we communicate with society, what

science teaches us, the spirituality,

signifying meaning and connection.

So, you know, these steps,

what we're trying to do here...


And to that, I would add that I think

we're very encouraged by the fact that

when we launched our first website, which

was probably at least eight years ago.

I think so.

So something like that, then

we launched another one.

But what we observe is that, you know, a

few years ago, almost a hundred percent

of the visitors to our site and the

persons interested in Dan's life's

work, we're mental health professionals.

And now what we're very excited by is

the fact that it's more of a Noah's ark.

It's no longer mostly mental health.

It's business, it's educators,

it's parents, it's medical, it's

every artist it's, entrepreneurs.

And so this is a very

encouraging shift, I think.

It's not just here in the US,

it's, you know, we see the

same thing when we overseas.

And so it is, it's really exciting.

And I think something we experienced

earlier this year, just to conclude, is

that we were in Myanmar and Singapore.

And the ironic thing is that the, the

business leaders there are very interested

in more meditation, in more mindfulness.

And ironically, that has been their

tradition, but now, and people kind

of put religion or put meditation

or put the spirituality to the side.

But now with the scientific studies

that no one can ignore, there's a great

enthusiasm to embrace mindfulness.

And that's really exciting.

We feel like our Institute is just

on the, on the edge and pushing,

pushing all of this forward.


This is a, it's a wonderful, exciting time

because now we can have an intelligent,

grounded spirituality that's about mwe.

So, yeah.


And it's wonderful.

Thank you.

I just want to take this

opportunity to thank you both so

much for the work that you do.

Is there anything, if people want to

know more about the work that you guys

do and what you're offering, where

can they go to find out some more?

We would encourage them

to go to our websites.

There are two, and they're connected.

The first one is DrDanSiegel.com

and that has all of the upcoming

events and it has other information

about our Institute and our team.

And the other site is the Mindsight

Institute, which hosts all of the

learning opportunities that we

have and all of the resources,

which range from free resources.

The wheel of awareness is on the Dr.

Dan Siegel site as one of our

resources and all the way through to

say, for example, a 96 hour course

where those physicians or mental

health professionals who want CE

credits, they could go there and take

a one hour or two, a 96 hour course.


Yeah, go, go see.

Go explore.


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